Feedback/Comments/Questions on Soviet Lists

Here's a spot for you to put any feedback/comments/suggestions or questions regarding the BG:NORTHAG Soviet Lists.

Thanks

Richard

Few points on the Sovs:
Recce could also contain MBTs. Other than organic Regt Arty/ Bn Mortars, Artillery was very strictly controlled and you would not get a couple of BM-21 detached to support a Bn sized battlegroup. Perhaps introduce points or a dice throw to determine if the BG is part of a Div, Army, Front main effort to allow the use of upper echelon support.
The independent Tank Bn is a good formation to use!

Patiently waiting for the VDV. List.

nickdives wrote:Recce could also contain MBTs.

Hi Nick. Agreed but as you can get single MBTs in the tank section I didn't think it necessary to include them in recce.

nickdives wrote: Other than organic Regt Arty/ Bn Mortars, Artillery was very strictly controlled and you would not get a couple of BM-21 detached to support a Bn sized battlegroup. Perhaps introduce points or a dice throw to determine if the BG is part of a Div, Army, Front main effort to allow the use of upper echelon support.

Will take on-table BM-21 support out of the list. Do you suggest removing BM-21 and BM-27 out of the off-table artillery fire options and only allowing access to them in additional fire support and timed strikes?

Thanks

Richard

Whoa mohamed wrote:Patiently waiting for the VDV. List.

Working on it

Richard

Hi Richard,

a good idea bearing in mind the minimum range of about 5,000m! Yes any non Organic, Regt level, should be factored in as off table, giving fire support/timed strikes. The only problem is the size as they would fire as a battery and not spilt down!

I've now added the Soviet VDV Desant list. Just to explain the more I read the more I decided that I needed to split the VDV list into two lists - a purely airborne (paratrooper jumping from planes or landing in planes) list and a second list dealing with heliborne troops that could be VDV or DShB troops. This second list is right at the beginning of the process and will take a while to get completed.

Thanks

Richard

Fantastic job on the VDV. just a few suggestions consider if you will adding
Btrd. San to the medics list.
Btrd Z as a ADA. Option.
Thanks Mikey.

Thanks Mikey

Whoa mohamed wrote:Btrd. San to the medics list.

Not something I've heard of. I'll look into it (or send me something) and will likely add it as an Ambulance option in Logistics Support Units.

Whoa mohamed wrote:Btrd Z as a ADA. Option.

Phew! Got this one. On Page 10 as an option for the ZSU-23-2 towed gun in Specialist Support Units.

Thanks

Richard

Rich

Just printed out the VDV list, like it.
One problem, in the 'Reconnaissance Support Units', the sniper with spotter hitting on a 9 or 10?
Should this be 6+

Paul

Richard
I posted a pic of the B-DTR SAN on our FB page for you.

Gun-Pit Paul wrote:One problem, in the 'Reconnaissance Support Units', the sniper with spotter hitting on a 9 or 10?
Should this be 6+

OMG!!! I can believe that was left in there. That's from one of my earliest versions on the list when I was thinking about using a D10 system. Oops! Will fix that.

Whoa mohamed wrote:I posted a pic of the B-DTR SAN on our FB page for you.

Thanks Mikey. I'll definitely add it to the list.

Richard

Hi Richard, just a quick one as I haven't seen it anywhere else - with regards to list building for soviets, do the infantry companies count as a single "platoon" from a min/max platoon restriction for say a platoon sized game?

Quick note to say the VDV list has been updated and the VDV AFV Data has been added to the first thread.

Richard

Hi Crispy

That's a good question and one that is probably better answered by Warwick and/or Piers. You might want to post it in the main Q&A section.

Richard

Hi Richard

I have been looking through the Soviet Motor Battalion list and i have noticed that the Tactical Operations Center has the TOC rule, would this mean that the soviets will get access to the Radio Communications Network rule through the TOC rules discription "TOC - Tactical Operation Centre-Provides an additional Officer to the player’s battlegroup and includes the Senior Officer, Radio Communications Network and Communications unit special rules."

Also if the TOC gives the Communications unit special rule, what is the point of having a Forward Signal Unit that does the same thing?

Thanks

Alex

Hi, just a quick question!

In the Soviet Naval Infantry Battlegroup a platoon is listed as having 3 squads under composition and then further down as having only 2 squads.

So, 2 or 3 squads?

Thanks!
/Andreas

alicks wrote:Hi Richard

I have been looking through the Soviet Motor Battalion list and i have noticed that the Tactical Operations Center has the TOC rule, would this mean that the soviets will get access to the Radio Communications Network rule through the TOC rules discription "TOC - Tactical Operation Centre-Provides an additional Officer to the player’s battlegroup and includes the Senior Officer, Radio Communications Network and Communications unit special rules."

Also if the TOC gives the Communications unit special rule, what is the point of having a Forward Signal Unit that does the same thing?

Thanks

Alex

Hi Alex - I guess the only reason to get a Forward Signals Unit in this instance is to get a second re-roll? We've never used a TOC yet in any of our games and I doubt it will make it into the final version of the game.

Thanks

Richard

Tomek917 wrote:In the Soviet Naval Infantry Battlegroup a platoon is listed as having 3 squads under composition and then further down as having only 2 squads.

So, 2 or 3 squads?

Hi Andreas - you caught me out on my poor editing skills! Whatever is in the darker brown box is what is in the platoon. I just need to change the 3 to a 2 in the Platoon Composition area above.

Thanks

Richard

It’s a lot of editing Richard so it is understandable!

Appreciate all the work you have put in to this!

/Andreas

Hi,

I am a bit puzzled by the two 'heavy' soviet lists, Tank and Motor Divisions. Beside the thing about MRL on map I found them quite effective with one exception. They are not really based on divisions but regiments. The Motor Division list should be motorized rifle regiment (because it covers also the motorized rifle regiment of a tank division) and the tank also cover the MRD tank regiment.

For the  additional fire support section I have some suggestions. Right now it looks off to me. ,

120mm were battalion mortars, and the 122 were regimental guns (one battalion per regiment) often used in direct fire role. The division artillery regiment had 152mm and the rockets. On the other hand regimental battalions could be grouped with 152mm in Regimental Artillery groups.  I think it will be better to have the following table:

Soviet Fire Mission Request
Regimental  Support (2+):

1-4 3x 122mm (2s1) Howitzers
5-6 3x 152mm  (2s3)Howitzers

Division Support (4+)
1-2 3x 122mm (2s1)
3-4 3x 152mm  (2S3)
5-6 3x BM21

Army support (5+)

1-2 3x 152mm (D-20)
3-4 3x 152mm (2s5)
5-6 3x BM27

Comments: I do not think the 2s7 or front artillery had a role in a battlegroup size engagement, on the other hand the way soviet artillery was used meant regimental support should come rather quickly but it is not as powerful as NATO one (bog standard NATO field artillery was 155 rather than 105). Mortars are a battalion assets and should be treated that way. They are already covered in the artillery section. I would also remove the 2S3 from thas section, the 2S1 were supposed to be pushed closed to the front and even used in direct fire, but the Akatsya no.


The other issue is the absence of T-55 (toward the end of the 70' there were still T-55 in tank battalions of motor rifle regiments) and also the limitation of pairings with T-62. considering the way tanks were delivered and the whole issues related to T-64 and T-80 production, there were units with BMP-2 and T-62 pairings.

Best,
Arrigo

Hi Rich

Have noticed in both Tk and MR lists, that to upgrade a platoon of, say, T.80B to T.80BV is exactly the same, +45 points.
Shouldn't the MR list be +60 points (as there are 4, not 3, tanks) in the tank platoon of a MRR?

Keep up the good work.

Paul

Hi Richard

I have also been looking at the pointing system and have noticed that 3x T80B with no upgrades in the Soviet Armoured list is 15pts more expensive than 3x TOGS Cheiftain in the British Armoured list, how is this the case when the Cheftain has a better gun and more advancements ammo and armour wise? The moral rating on the Cheftain are Veteran compared to the Regular on the T80B?

Also 3x T72A is the same points as 3x Cheiftan TOGS, with the same points raised above, are these not massively over priced compared to the NATO counterparts?

Thanks

Alex

Hi Arrigo

Thanks for your really useful comments - especially about the artillery. I'll get to them in a second.

Arrigo wrote:I am a bit puzzled by the two 'heavy' soviet lists, Tank and Motor Divisions. Beside the thing about MRL on map I found them quite effective with one exception. They are not really based on divisions but regiments. The Motor Division list should be motorized rifle regiment (because it covers also the motorized rifle regiment of a tank division) and the tank also cover the MRD tank regiment.

I was trying to differentiate between a Tank Division and a Motor Rifle Division particularly in terms of numbers in a standard tank platoon (3 vs 4) and I also decided to give the MRD list more APC options. I know this isn't necessarily representative of reality - it was more about trying to keep the page count down! If people want to use a Tank list with BTR-60s they can simply choose across lists.

Arrigo wrote:120mm were battalion mortars, and the 122 were regimental guns (one battalion per regiment) often used in direct fire role. The division artillery regiment had 152mm and the rockets. On the other hand regimental battalions could be grouped with 152mm in Regimental Artillery groups. I think it will be better to have the following table:

Soviet Fire Mission Request
Regimental Support (2+):

1-4 3x 122mm (2s1) Howitzers
5-6 3x 152mm (2s3)Howitzers

Division Support (4+)
1-2 3x 122mm (2s1)
3-4 3x 152mm (2S3)
5-6 3x BM21

Army support (5+)

1-2 3x 152mm (D-20)
3-4 3x 152mm (2s5)
5-6 3x BM27

That's really useful - I'm likely to replicate that in the next iteration of the Soviet lists. Thanks again.

Arrigo wrote:Comments: I do not think the 2s7 or front artillery had a role in a battlegroup size engagement, on the other hand the way soviet artillery was used meant regimental support should come rather quickly but it is not as powerful as NATO one (bog standard NATO field artillery was 155 rather than 105). Mortars are a battalion assets and should be treated that way. They are already covered in the artillery section. I would also remove the 2S3 from thas section, the 2S1 were supposed to be pushed closed to the front and even used in direct fire, but the Akatsya no.

More useful stuff. I'll have to think about that, but I may keep Front Artillery as a really really hard to get option. I'll also consider removing the 2S3 - which is sad as I'm sure they'd look good on the table.

Arrigo wrote:The other issue is the absence of T-55 (toward the end of the 70' there were still T-55 in tank battalions of motor rifle regiments) and also the limitation of pairings with T-62. considering the way tanks were delivered and the whole issues related to T-64 and T-80 production, there were units with BMP-2 and T-62 pairings.

This variant of the rules is set in 1986/87 and these two lists are meant to represent Category A (or 1) Divisions on the Central Front. I've made T-55's available for Soviet units invading Norway and for Soviet Naval Infantry - and of course they will be there for the WARPAC allies. Of course if people want to field them in a Central Front game they are welcome to (it's their game after all) and they can just take the points cost from the Northern Front list.

Thanks - and sorry for the slow reply

Richard

Hi Gun-Pit Paul

Gun-Pit Paul wrote:Hi Rich

Have noticed in both Tk and MR lists, that to upgrade a platoon of, say, T.80B to T.80BV is exactly the same, +45 points.
Shouldn't the MR list be +60 points (as there are 4, not 3, tanks) in the tank platoon of a MRR?

I'm wondering if you are looking at the latest version of the lists. I've checked and the T-80B to T-80BV and they are +30 (Tank Div) and +40 (Motor Rifle Div). However I did look around and see I made a mistake on the T-72 upgrade costs on the MRD list - doing the exact thing you pointed out! So I'll need to fix that!

Keep up the eagle eye work!

Richard