Danish army lists

According to Per Finsted, the regiment also had a staff company. This consisted of:
• HQ
• Signals platoon
• AA platoon
• Scout group
• Pioneer platoon
• Medical personnel
• Ammunition column
• Trains

Regimental HQ was also quite large (150 men) and as well as COs staff, included the regimental ammunition column.

Battalion sounds about right. According to Finsted there were 2 mortar platoons of three tubes each by 1940 in the heavy weapons company.

Bestest
K

So basically, in battlegroup terms, that would mean that you can buy platoons of infantry, but no platoon support options for those (like mortars) because they are organized in a separate platoon entry? Right?
That is how i interpret the regimental setup at least

Sent from Topic'it App

Not sure how the Danish army is different from most of its contemporaries (eg German, Polish) in this respect. They all had mortars in battalion-level platoons and the mortars were allocated to companies if required. Indeed in armies (like the Polish) where mortars were scarce, these would usually all be retained by the battalion commander under his own command.

By and large it would be very unlikely for platoons to be supported by mortars in any army. They would, at most. be allocated to support companies. A good example is shown in a Danish manual where a sample LMG company is supported with 2 machine guns, 2 mortars and a machine cannon from the battalion heavy company.

I don't think Warwick intended that mortars would be restricted that way. In the '44 armies, for example, medium mortars are available as platoon supports, and by that time they were historically concentrated at battalion in most armies, and never allocated as singles (I'm sure there are exceptions to prove the rule). Even the Germans, who retained pairs of 8cm mortars at company level in some organisations wouldn't allocate them as singles, though the pair might be designated to support a single platoon if that platoon's objectives were company priority.

Look to how other lists are depicted in the books for how to employ platoon supports.

Having read a 24 page pdf on Chakoten, and some other resources, I would say that the supports are pretty similar to other armies.

Infantry platoons, supported by LMGs on tripods and Antitank guns.
They dont really mention mortars, except when they are included in the heavy company. So sound like mortars where not really used as infantry platoon support really, my interpretation ofc.
Instead they were used more as a part of the heavy company, together with all the bigger guns.



Sent from Topic'it App

I have updated the army list, this time with:
Platoon support weapons. Seemed likethere were more platoon supports than I originally thougth.
Added the artillery section

Sent from Topic'it App

Latest version.
Whats new?
Tanks,
example vehicles
Artillery
Recce

Danish infantry company
—————————————-
Forward headquarters units
—————————————-
Forward HQ
Unit composition: 3 men
Transport: -
Special rules: senior officer, unique
Options:
may be mounted in heavy car +?pts
May add up to 2 Runners for +?pts each

Dispatches
Unit composition: 2 men
Transport: Bicycles
Special rules: dispatches
Options:
May be mounted on horseback
May be mounted on motorcycle

Mortar spotter
Unit composition: 2 men
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options: may be mounted in heavy car

2 Scout squads
Unit composition: 5 men
Transport: -
Special rules: Scout
Options:

————————
Infantry units
————————
Platoon HQ
Unit composition: 10 men
Transport: -
Special rules: officer, mortar spotter
Options:
Upgrade 2 men to a sniper rifle team +?pts

3 rifle squads
Unit composition: 8 men
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:

Platoon support units
Each platoon support unit may be purchased twice for each platoon. No more than four platoon support units may be purchased for each platoon.

LMG support unit
Unit composition: ? men with M/1924 8mm Madsen or M/1929 8mm Madsen LMG on bipod
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:
May be mounted on tripod for +?pts

Autocannon support unit
Unit composition: ? Men with M/38 20mm autocannon
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:

Anti-tank gun support unit
Unit composition: ? Men with 37mm Bofors gun
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:

———————————
Artillery units
———————————
On-board Mortar unit
Unit composition: ? Men with 81mm Brandt mortar
Transport:
Special rules:
Options:

———————————
Logistics support units
———————————
Supply train
Unit composition: 1 man
Transport: horse and cart
Special rules: resupply
Options: may add up to two horse and cart
May upgrade all horse and cart in unit to light truck for +?pts each.

———————————
Tank units
———————————
Landsverk armoured car unit
Unit composition: 1 Landsverk Lynx
Transport: -
Special rules: Unique
Options: may add up to two Landsverk Lynx for ?pts each

———————————
Recce support units
———————————
Motorcycle recce support unit
Unit composition: ? Men
Transport: Motorcycle with sidecar
Special rules: Scout, Restricted
Options: may add up to one MG for ?pts

———————————
Danish army vehicle stats
———————————
Landsverk Lynx
Armour: O/O/O
Armament: 20mm Madsen, 3x MG
Movement: 8”/12”

P17 Kegresse

Volvo LV 102 4-ton truck

Triangel T35 searchlight

Tempo G1200 heavy car

Scania-Vabis 1920

Scania-Vabis 1922

Nimbus Model C motorcycle




Sent from Topic'it App

Hi Sprygsy.

You are making progress! I must admit finding any really useful information on Danish motor transport a steeply uphill struggle

I found some notes on vehicles I made yonks ago.

P17 Kegresse - no evidence of these vehicles. Kegresse tracks were fitted to a range of vehicles incl 4 Triangels of various types in the 20ties but they were not successful in trials so not used beyond the experimental stage.

Triangel searchlight trucks - 16 purchased, Also 4 3.5 ton Triangels bought in 1924. This seems a remarkably small number bearing in mind it was their national manufacturer and they were allegedly used for balloon units, towing artillery etc.

Tempo G1200 - apparently 20 found their way into the Danish Army. I find it hard to imagine this 4-seater as a 'heavy' car. Used to tow 37mm guns among other things.

Scania-Vabis - bought in very small numbers in the 1920s (6 in total I think)  - can't imagine many survived till 1940 (they would have been 18-20 years old by then)  

I would suggest Ford V8 sedans, Ford V8 de luxe, Ford 91 and Ford Tudor for artillery officers, senior officers and Morris Minors for the junior grades in the infantry (perhaps the odd Tempo).

For trucks Ford Model As, Ford BBs and Ford Thames 1939 (some of the latter were given special bodies for light artillery towing).  For light trucks Fordson 1.5T 1937 and Ford V8 1939 (? mainly 917 T) to carry 20mm guns, radios and AAMG squads as well as GS. The latter has the added attraction that it is available as a plastic kit.

The Danish Army Vehicles website is very useful (www.armyvehicles.dk). Unfortunately it gives very little information on numbers used and who used them and how. If you come across such information it would be very useful indeed so please share!

Bestest
K

Yeah, it was the www.armyvehicles.dk website i used to compile the list i have.

Sent from Topic'it App

http://www.armyvehicles.dk/citroenkegressep17.htm

It looks like they had at least one P17 Kegresse.

Looking at the other entry on that website for the kegresse, they wanted to use them as artillery spotter vehicles and/or support vehicles.

My plan was to make it as an artillery spotter vehicle, with the Unique rule, so you can only ever have one.

Sent from Topic'it App

Quite right. I missed that the original 3 Citroens with Kegresse tracks were sent back as part-payment for one P17 in 1932. The engine of this was completely knackered after 2-3 years of use and had to be replaced in 1935. Which suggests perhaps that after a further 5 years' use the vehicle may not have been that roadworthy....

Is there any evidence that it was transferred to the artillery branch and used as a spotter vehicle?  

I've just noticed that Elhiem do a Tempo in doored and doorless version. Would the former not make a more likely choice?

Yeah, the engine would probably gone to shreds after 5 years use.
My main point for adding it was to show the limited amount of equipment the danes actually had. With only 6000 infantry in total if i remember correctly, the army wasnt the biggest one.
So I dont want people spamming unrealistic amounts of equipment (well, they will do that anyways...)

No evidence that I can find that they actually used it, which makes me wonder if it should be added at all...

Hmm, have to see if I can dig up something on the Tempo.

Sent from Topic'it App

To be fair, limiting the army to two divisions, no tanks etc were political choices. However, it also meant those infantry divisions could be very well 'tooled up' and were possibly the best equipped units of their kind to be found anywhere. I don't think there is any reason to assume the Danish infantry should be limited in their support - quite the opposite.

Bestest
K

Yes, thats true. There is no need to force in-game list-build options in the list itself..

I’ll remove the P17 in the coming update to the list.

Sent from Topic'it App

That seems reasonable.

Just found a pic of Tempos in an artillery unit, so the premise that they could have been used by spotters is not that far-fetched.

Lots of resin Ford V8 variants are made by Hunor, so I am sure some useful vehicles can be found there (with a bit of conversion perhaps for the more discerning) such as the ambulance.

The Danish army also, apparently, used Ford Eifels as run-arounds.  

As for trucks, an awful lot of Ford Model AAs and BBs seem to appear in photos, so it's not unlikely that some of these were still on the go in 1940. GAZ AAs might be useful stand-ins.

Bestest
K

Updates:
- suggested points values
- extremely bad formatting
- added generic logistic and hq units

Danish infantry company
—————————————-
Forward headquarters units
—————————————-
Forward HQ 22pts 3-r BR
Unit composition: 3 men
Transport: -
Special rules: senior officer, unique
Options:
May be mounted in Ford heavy car +3pts
May add up to 2 Runners for +3pts each

Dispatches 12pts 0-i BR
Unit composition: 2 men
Transport: Bicycles
Special rules: dispatches
Options:
May be mounted on horseback for +2pts
May be mounted on motorcycle for + 4pts

Mortar spotter 16pts 1-r BR
Unit composition: 2 men
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options: may be mounted in Tempo G1200 light utility car for +2pts

2 Scout squad 16pts 1-r BR
Unit composition: 5 men
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:
May be mounted on motorcycles for +10pts

Wire team 7pts 0-i BR
Unit composition: 2 men
Transport: -
Special rules: Communications
Options: -

————————
Infantry units
————————
Platoon HQ 44pts 4-i BR
Unit composition: 10 men
Transport: -
Special rules: officer, mortar spotter
Options:
Upgrade 2 men to a sniper rifle team +10pts
Upgrade 1 man to a combat medic for +7pts

3 rifle squads
Unit composition: 8 men
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:

The whole platoon may be mounted on bikes for +20pts

Platoon support units
Each platoon support unit may be purchased twice for each platoon. No more than four platoon support units may be purchased for each platoon.

LMG support unit 12pts 1-i BR
Unit composition: 5 men with M/1924 8mm Madsen or M/1929 8mm Madsen LMG on bipod
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:
May be mounted on tripod for +3pts
May be mounted on bicycles for +5pts

Autocannon support unit 18pts 1-i BR
Unit composition: 5 Men with M/38 20mm autocannon
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:
May add a Ford light truck tow for +4pts

Anti-tank gun support unit
Unit composition: 5 Men with 37mm Bofors gun
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:
May add Tempo G1200 light utility car tow for +2pts
May add a Ford light truck tow for +4pts
May add 3-man loader team for +10pts

———————————
Artillery units
———————————
On-board Mortar unit
Unit composition: ? Men with 81mm Brandt mortar
Transport:
Special rules:
Options:
May add Tempo G1200 light utility car tow for +2pts

———————————
Logistics support units
———————————
Supply train 6pts 1-i BR
Unit composition: 1 man
Transport: horse and cart
Special rules: resupply
Options:
May add up to two horse and cart for +4 pts each
May upgrade all horse and cart in unit to Ford light truck for +3pts each.

Forward aid post 20pts 5-i BR
Unit composition: 4 men and a tent
Special rules: Unique

Stretcher party 10pts 1-i BR
Unit composition: 2 men
Special rules: Medic

Ambulance 12pts 2-i BR
Unit composition: 1 ambulance light truck
Special rules: Medic

———————————
Tank units
———————————
Landsverk armoured car unit 26pts 3-r BR
Unit composition: 1 Landsverk Lynx
Transport: -
Special rules: Unique
Options: may add up to two Landsverk Lynx for +26pts each

———————————
Recce support units
———————————
Motorcycle recce support unit
Unit composition: ? Men
Transport: Motorcycle with sidecar
Special rules: Scout, Restricted
Options: may add up to one MG for ?pts

———————————
Danish army vehicle stats
———————————
Landsverk Lynx
Armour: O/O/O
Armament: 20mm Madsen, 3x MG
Movement: 8”/12”

Tempo G1200 light utility car
Hits:2
Movement: 10”/16”

Volvo LV 102 4-ton truck

Triangel T35 searchlight

Nimbus Model C motorcycle



Sent from Topic'it App

And yes, the points values are estimates pending playtesting

Sent from Topic'it App

No idea why, but bicycle sections had only 8 men - the grenadier was omitted. Did that mean the bicycle section had no hand grenades, had a reduced number of hand grenades or the HGs were simply distributed to the other members of the squad? No idea.

I thought about the Volvos, but the Danish Army Vehicles site is somewhat enigmatic on when they arrived. Have you found some evidence that they arrived before the end of the war?

Bestest
K

Ok, so then I should make two entries, one for ”standard” infantry sections and one for bicycle sections?

No real proof that they had Volvos in 1940, but they had them later on. The Volvo trucks where produced starting in the mid-late 30’s but the case might be that the danish army that was in Sweden during the war got some and brought them back over. If memory serves me correct the danes where eqipped with mostly swedish equipment, so getting a truck or two to bring back home seems correct.
I say we go for the things we can prove, so Ford trucks , and leave the Volvos off the list for now.

Sent from Topic'it App

https://www.chakoten.dk/infanteriet-i-mellemkrigstiden/

Found this page yesterday, time to sort out all the infantry and bicycle companies

Sent from Topic'it App

Started the infantry rework

Infantry platoons
Each infantry company may contain 1 to 3 rekylgeværsdelning and up to 1 trefodsdelning.
Army may contain any number of infantry companies

———-

Rekylgeværdelning

1 platoon HQ
Unit composition: 10 men
Transport: -
Special rules: Officer
Options: upgrade 2 men to a sniper team for +8pts
Upgrade 4 men to grenadiers for +6pts

4 infantry units
Unit Composition: 9 men
1 man armed with a 8mm Madsen LMG on bipod
1 man armed with rifle grenades

————-

Trefodsdelning
1 platoon HQ
Unit composition: 10 men
Transport: -
Special rules: Officer
Options: upgrade 2 men to a sniper team for +8pts
Upgrade 4 men to grenadiers for +6pts

4 infantry units
Unit Composition: 9 men
1 man armed with a 8mm Madsen LMG on tripod
1 man armed with rifle grenades




Sent from Topic'it App

Hi Sprygsy.

Like what you are doing with this very much. Only some minor points/suggestions.

1) I love that you use Danish language for unit designations. It lends a lot of flavour and authenticity. Perhaps you should continue this downward to squads ie delingstrop, rykelgevaersgruppe and trefodsgruppe- but at least use literal translations ie light machine gun group (squad) and tripod group (squad) etc. As I said before, it's not important games-wide, but speaks volumes about Danish tactical thinking that at this level they do not use terms used everywhere else like 'infantry' or 'rifle' companies/platoons/squads etc. Incidentally, I think a typo may have crept into the spelling of 'deling'

2) the 4 rifle granadiers (geværgrenaderer) are in the platoon HQ (delingstrop) and the hand grenade grenadiers (håndgrenader) are in the squads (grupper) not the other way around.

3) I'm not sure that allowing a sniper team in HQ troop is a reflection of historical reality. There was certainly no team. Simply one runner was meant to be an above average marksman and 2 out of the 4 in the company were given an M1929 sharpshooting rifle. This was simply an improved M1889 with tarted up sights, but (and contrary to what I wrote before!) no scopes - apparently these were not issued to save expense. The M1929 offered a modest increase in effective and absolute ranges. The other two marksmen had to make do with ordinary M1889 rifles. Of course how  you deal with this, somewhat depends on how the rules can handle this reality.

Incidentally, the Danes in general seem to have been above average marksmen - something a number of Germans who came up against them commented upon. One unusual technique the Danes were trained in apparently, was to quickly rise from a lying position, snap shoot at previously invisible targets using terrain cues and then drop into cover again. It is claimed a high degree of accuracy could be attained with a little training. Much as I hate masses of 'special rules', in this case giving the Danes an edge in small arms accuracy seems to be warranted. They did seem to knock out an awful lot of Germans for very few casualties of their own.  

For those wanting to game strictly historically or near historically, a table could be adapted from the April 9 1940 articles in Chakoten, of what units were available where on the border. Happy to do that next week if wanted.

Bestest
K

Plan was when you upgrade the soldiers with sniper rifles, they would form a sniper team. (So can set up away from the HQ and so forth) That is how i interpreted the text on chakoten, and trying to merge the battlegroup rules and the hostorical setup.
But if they only had slightly better targetting, that might not be needed. Have to think about that.

I will change the spelling of Deling, there is a swedish word Delning, that i use in my line of work, must be why I cant spell correctly

Sent from Topic'it App

And yes, i want to use historically correct terms (good that you like them) as far as possible, it gives some historical correctness to everything

Sent from Topic'it App

Gebhk, you seem to know your way around danish units, can you answer this for me please?
Forsynere? What is that? Ordinary soldier? Not quite a hjælper?
They seem to be everywhere in the danish army though...

Sent from Topic'it App