Updated Soviet Lists 2.1

Hi All

I've updated all the current Soviet Lists.  Before I stick them in the sticky thread I thought it best to put them here for a quick review and see if you can pick out any errors.  Here they are:

Soviet Tank Division List
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1E0ig-P9hVazRGPIn7tOW3BGZvVCsHzUW

Soviet Motor Rifle Division List
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XaaZnb3P9RONwo3k0rZgoAaDdYoA85w_

Soviet Desant Division List
Re-editing - Coming soon

Soviet Naval Infantry Regiment List
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LSJ8x4hZkUkAdsjU-tmofs5WNVZJTTME

Soviet Leningrad Military District Motor Rifle Division List
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mo4K-uQ8vFKIo9L4GqdJZ7YlDGLxqh2L

Thanks

Richard

Hey Richard,

the lists are looking ver good but one question again:

In the Leningrad list the T-55 and T-62 have no Battle Drill. Sorry for asking again, but is there any reason for? Maybe it`s an error, because the T-72 have it? Or do you tink, they are so cheap, they shouldn`t have it for balancing reasons?

Like the new option to take a Storm AT vehicle a lot!
Thanks for posting the updatet lists!

Thanks
Chris

Zauberlehrling wrote:In the Leningrad list the T-55 and T-62 have no Battle Drill.

Well done Chris - you win first prize for spotting that one. Those units should have Battle Drill. It will be fixed and replaced Monday morning my time. I've also just found a stray "Fireteam" which needs to be deleted as well...

Oh well....

Richard

Hi Rich

Having just looked at the Tank and Motor-Rifle Div lists, I have a few points...
1) Why have you left in the 240mm mtr in the Artillery List? Also the 160mm mtr?
These weapons were Front level, way beyond a Regtl FAO.
Should be in the Additional Fire Support lists, at Front level. Possibly replacing the 152mm 2s5, but keep the 2s5 at Army level.
2) Side note to above; according to the lists, the MR Platoon Commander (being a Mortar Spotter) could call the 160mm and 240mm mortars in!
Also, others could, as well.
3) In the Armd Div list, Additional Fire Support, Army Battery, 1-2 15mm Howitzers (D-20). Should be 152mm.
4) Should the Recce BMP Squad and the Recce Foot Patrol have the Battle-Drill trait?

On the look out for more, but that's all for now, I think.

Paul

Hi Paul

Gun-Pit paul wrote:1) Why have you left in the 240mm mtr in the Artillery List? Also the 160mm mtr?
These weapons were Front level, way beyond a Regtl FAO.
Should be in the Additional Fire Support lists, at Front level. Possibly replacing the 152mm 2s5, but keep the 2s5 at Army level.

Mainly coz I forgot with all the other changes I made. This will be fixed tomorrow.

2) Side note to above; according to the lists, the MR Platoon Commander (being a Mortar Spotter) could call the 160mm and 240mm mortars in!

Yup... That is a bit silly isn't it.

3) In the Armd Div list, Additional Fire Support, Army Battery, 1-2 15mm Howitzers (D-20). Should be 152mm.

Thanks - missed that.

4) Should the Recce BMP Squad and the Recce Foot Patrol have the Battle-Drill trait?

No they should not. I thought I had picked up all of those but obviously not.

Thanks as always Paul, for running an eye over the lists for me. Let me know if you find anything else

Richard

Hi,

I've got a little question about the pricing of infantry companies. I'm not trying to contradict anything, just asking for explanations about why things are like that :
-First, I noticed that the arctic motor rifle company is, at 295pts, much more expensive than the BTR-mounted Naval and regular Motor Rifle companies, which have the same number of troops, mostly the same support options for the same price, but are cheaper by more than 100pts while having better transports, since BTRs are faster and better armed than the MT-LBV. It's even more expensive than a BMP-1 mounted Motor Rifle company, which offers more firepower than the arctic company, although with fewer support options. Why is that, does the arctic company get bonuses that I didn't find in the text? It might be that, so I wanted to set things clear.
-The Soviet airborne company, the one without vehicles, is priced the same as the Naval Infantry company, but the airborne guys don't get any transports. Do they have better skill/training than regular Naval Infantry and Motor rifles?

And I've got one more question, not dedicated to Soviet lists in general, but to the game in general : when the ruleset refers to platoon, company and battalion level games, what is the maximum price in points allowed by these levels?

Thanks, and I can't wait to try a couple games!

Hi Richard

I have noticed that the Artillery Command Post and the Reconnaissance Command in the Armoured list still have the Officer special rule, i am assuming this is an oversight.

also the Scout BMP Motor patrol and the foot patrol still have the battle drill rule.

I also noticed that most of the company command squads have battle drill. is this an over sight? or can squads use battle drill if in sight of the company commander if the platoon commander is pinned or dead?

thanks

Alex

Hi Kirill_GV001

Kirill_GV001 wrote:First, I noticed that the arctic motor rifle company is, at 295pts

Sorry - no super cool explanation - it's just plain wrong. Comes from having 5 army lists open at once and working on them all at once. Somethings get missed like this. It is fixed and I'll update it shortly.

The Soviet airborne company, the one without vehicles, is priced the same as the Naval Infantry company, but the airborne guys don't get any transports. Do they have better skill/training than regular Naval Infantry and Motor rifles?

This is a slightly harder one. I'll have to think about this some more - I'd say this is a mission specific list and I don't want VDV (even those without BMD's) to be too cheap....

And I've got one more question, not dedicated to Soviet lists in general, but to the game in general : when the ruleset refers to platoon, company and battalion level games, what is the maximum price in points allowed by these levels?

At the moment we just use the points costs for platoon/company/battalion as used in standard BG. It's not perfect for NORTHAG, but still works fine in my opinion. One less thing for me to think about!

Thanks for the questions and pointing out the errors. Much appreciated

Richard

Great, thanks a lot!

Hi Alex

alicks wrote:I have noticed that the Artillery Command Post and the Reconnaissance Command in the Armoured list still have the Officer special rule, i am assuming this is an oversight.

No - at the moment that is intentional. I thought I'd leave these two options available to the Soviets as the Artillery Command Post is meant to be an officer attached to the HQ, rather than in the artillery section of the list as per most armies. There has to be some benefit for that. Re the Recon Command I was wanting that to represent a bit more independence a recon commander might need.

also the Scout BMP Motor patrol and the foot patrol still have the battle drill rule.

Yes - that's a mistake and has been removed

I also noticed that most of the company command squads have battle drill. is this an over sight? or can squads use battle drill if in sight of the company commander if the platoon commander is pinned or dead?

Again that was intentional. I'd like the Company Commander to be able to move/order the Platoon Support options purchased under that section of the list just like a Platoon Commander could as discussed previously. The way I've done it (leaving the Battle Drill rule there) is probably not the best way to show it, but is all I have right now.

I hadn't considered your suggestion - but I think that would work too.

Hope that helps

Richard

Hi Richard,

Are you planning to add any older units (such as the ZSU 57-2) for category C units like the Leningrad motor district?

Cheers,

Joe

Unfortunately I've been a bit sick this week and have not been able to get as much re-editing done as I would like.  I am however relatively confident that the Soviet Tank and Motor Rifle Lists are almost 100% now - so have re added them back at the top of this thread.  Please take a look and make sure I picked up on all the feedback and comments.  

I'll get the remainder up next week.

Thanks for your patience

Richard

T-55 appreciation society wrote:Are you planning to add any older units (such as the ZSU 57-2) for category C units like the Leningrad motor district?

Hi Joe

(Love your username BTW) I hadn't really been considering adding in Category C stuff at present. Still way to much stuff to do for all the other Cat A (WARPAC and NATO) forces out there.

If you have reasonable intel on usage of kit such as the ZSU-57-2 in teh units that might have been involved in an attack on Norway (from the north) I'd love to see them.

Thanks

Richard

Richard,
Yesterday we ran an American vs. Soviet scenario (750pts.) using your new Soviet Tank and Motorized Division lists that were just revised. We also used the second version of your Battle Drill rules. We feel your close to getting the feel of the USSR forces now. The battle drill rules were much smoother and the dice rolling was spot on for orders but challenging. Artillery was stronger and more lethal with more capabilities with the point changes to the Soviet lists. Revising the guns has put the artillery more in line with what we think reflects their doctrine better. Well done. We do have 3 questions, if you don't mind, on some things that came up and anyone can chime in to help answer :
1) The first part of this question is specific and then a general part, so please bear with me. In the American Heavy Division list the Forward HQ allows an upgrade from the M577 to the Bradley but losing the 3 man team. We would like to know the reasoning for this as most other nations and the marines, don't seem to have to give up their teams to move into a IFV. Now the general question: There are some FO's and HQ's that gain additional capabilites with other upgrades to their vehicles and some are just other vehicles that are available that don't add other capabilities. We get that option. Our question is with such additional options in this era versus say WW2 which usually is just a couple observers in a small transport with a radio, small halftrack or such. Should this era really be allowed to dismount if the equipment that gives these men the extra capabilites is in the vehicle? We don't have any ground experienced vets that we know to ask, could be a game rule thing also. Anyone with a explanation or answer much appreciated. We do get if dismounted, extra orders are required, etc. We are talking game reasons or theory here, we are familiar with the rules (Battlegroup in general).
2) We also pulled 2 minestrikes yesterday. In the Cold War upgrade, no changes were made to the BR chit pull result. The old chart, in the original BattleGroup rules, is strength of 5 vs. rear armor. The only modern version we could find was the FASCAM box in the American lists. Against tanks/vehicles it's D6+2 vs. top armor. Also in your rules for Artillery fired scatterable mines you say roll a D6+2 and on both(?) D6s rolled, if a "1" is rolled it is also immobilized. Should that be 2D6 for damage if we are to use this method for the period? Is this an error? Clarification please.
3) In the rules for the Cold war gone hot supplement is states that NATO is only capable of Arillery Fired Mines. However, in the Soviet Lists they also have that capability on their additonal artillery support lists. In that box they also state to go to the Engineering rules for the clarification on this capability. However, when on that page it just explains how to clear a path through minefields. Our question then is: Are the soviets capable of this in the first place and is it the same as NATO or is the effect different?
Thanks for your patience Richard! We are enjoying this Supplement greatly!
Respectfully,
Gunny (and the FAT MAN )

Hi Rich

1) Hope you are feeling better.
2) Found a couple of typos in the lists...
a) Armd Div list, pg 19. 2s4 and 2s5 are 2s3 in the write-ups
b) Motor Rifle Div list, pg 15. 'Additional Fire Support' table Front Battery, the 2s4 is written '1-2   1-2   3 240mm Mortars (2s4)', should be '1-2   3 240mm Mortars (2s4)'
3) As a side note, should the BM-27 be the BM-22? I can live with either, so not that important.
4) In the Motor Rifle Div list, pg 6, the BTR Plat does not have the RPG-22 option, but both BMP Plats (pg 2 and 4) do. Any reason for this?

Looking for some more (that's what I'm here for)

Paul

Hi Gunny

Thanks for letting me know about your game and particularly for the feedback re Battle Drill and Soviet Artillery.

Onto your questions.

1) The first part of this question is specific and then a general part, so please bear with me. In the American Heavy Division list the Forward HQ allows an upgrade from the M577 to the Bradley but losing the 3 man team. We would like to know the reasoning for this as most other nations and the marines, don't seem to have to give up their teams to move into a IFV.

I guess the general thinking is along these lines. When you have a Forward HQ that consists of 3 men and a jeep, or an M113 or M577 I don’t consider these to be particularly “shooty” units. So I suppose 3 men jumping out of the jeep and heading into a house for a bit of protection and a spot of artillery spotting seems quite reasonable. As soon as you upgrade that unit from a “transport” to a “shooty” and armoured unit it makes less sense them the 3 guys to be wandering around by themselves, leaving their Brad to go spot arty or something like that. You want them to stay protected in their armour – and able to take on targets directly if they have too.

Most other Western nations are pretty similar, and the only really shooty options the Marines have are the tanks – which lose the 3 men wandering about ability.

Obviously what I’m saying doesn’t apply in every circumstance (I’m looking at you West Germany) and I’ve tried to make the Forward HQ make sense in the circumstances and in my head!

There are some FO's and HQ's that gain additional capabilites with other upgrades to their vehicles and some are just other vehicles that are available that don't add other capabilities. We get that option. Our question is with such additional options in this era versus say WW2 which usually is just a couple observers in a small transport with a radio, small halftrack or such. Should this era really be allowed to dismount if the equipment that gives these men the extra capabilites is in the vehicle? We don't have any ground experienced vets that we know to ask, could be a game rule thing also. Anyone with a explanation or answer much appreciated. We do get if dismounted, extra orders are required, etc. We are talking game reasons or theory here, we are familiar with the rules (Battlegroup in general).

OK – so I think I know what you are getting at. You take a US FO team (2 guys and a MUTT or HUMMWV) and upgrade them to a M981 FIST-V. The M981 comes with a Laser Designator and the Ambusher special rule. During the game for whatever reason you decide to dismount the FO team and put them high up in a building.

Does the unit in the building get the Laser Designator and Ambusher special rules?

My response would be no. The special rules in this case are associated with the M981 and are there because the M981 has a laser designator in the hammerhead mast. The mast also gives the vehicle the Ambusher special rule.

I hope that answers your question?

2) We also pulled 2 minestrikes yesterday. In the Cold War upgrade, no changes were made to the BR chit pull result. The old chart, in the original BattleGroup rules, is strength of 5 vs. rear armor. The only modern version we could find was the FASCAM box in the American lists. Against tanks/vehicles it's D6+2 vs. top armor. Also in your rules for Artillery fired scatterable mines you say roll a D6+2 and on both(?) D6s rolled, if a "1" is rolled it is also immobilized. Should that be 2D6 for damage if we are to use this method for the period? Is this an error? Clarification please.

I’ll have to make that clearer. The only difference I would suggest from the standard WW2 rules is that the strength 5 attack should be made against the top armour of the AFV rather than the rear armour (like artillery – a minor change from the WW2 BG which has no top armour rating).

Mines from the Minestrike chit are just normal mines.

3) In the rules for the Cold war gone hot supplement is states that NATO is only capable of Arillery Fired Mines. However, in the Soviet Lists they also have that capability on their additonal artillery support lists. In that box they also state to go to the Engineering rules for the clarification on this capability. However, when on that page it just explains how to clear a path through minefields. Our question then is: Are the soviets capable of this in the first place and is it the same as NATO or is the effect different?

That’s just a stupid Richard error! Yes the Soviets should have the capability to fire artillery scatterable minefields – just not as flexibly as the US (NATO) does. I’ll need to change the rules in artillery to reflect that – and change the comment about where to look for the rules in the army lists.

More work…..

Thanks Gunny - I very much appreciate your comments and commentary

Richard

Hi Paul

1) Hope you are feeling better.

Thanks mate. Getting there

2) Found a couple of typos in the lists...
a) Armd Div list, pg 19. 2s4 and 2s5 are 2s3 in the write-ups

Thanks - Fixed

b) Motor Rifle Div list, pg 15. 'Additional Fire Support' table Front Battery, the 2s4 is written '1-2 1-2 3 240mm Mortars (2s4)', should be '1-2 3 240mm Mortars (2s4)'

Also fixed

3) As a side note, should the BM-27 be the BM-22? I can live with either, so not that important.

Yeah – no idea. Can’t say I’d ever noticed it being referred to as a BM-22 before – but now you point it out I see what you are talking about. I think right now I’ll just stick with BM-27 (Then anyone looking it up will find the article in Wikipedia!)

4) In the Motor Rifle Div list, pg 6, the BTR Plat does not have the RPG-22 option, but both BMP Plats (pg 2 and 4) do. Any reason for this?

My reasoning is VERY simplistic. I consider the units equipped with BMP-1s and BMP-2s to be the better equipped units in the regiment/division. As such (and to make them a bit different and to show that the RPG-22 was still not widely distributed in 1986/87) I’ve limited the RPG-22 to just those units.

Nothing beyond that…

Thanks as always!

Richard

Hello,

I've found something else to ask about : the Naval Infantry Air Assault and Leningrad Arctic Motor Rifles platoons and companies both allow the use of helicopter to carry them, the Ka-29 Helix and Mi-8 Hip-C. Do we play these as we'd play NATO helos, permanently present on the battlefield with their own movement and targeting rules? Because the rules indicate that Soviet helos in general are to be used as CAS, attacking like Il-2 Sturmoviks instead of hovering and maneuvering like NATO choppers.
There are no errors in the rules, I just wanted to be sure of that.

[Edit]
I've actually got one more question about the Leningrad list... Tank companies are listed as 13-tank formations with 4-tank platoons (1 Officer, 3 Platoon commanders, 9 regular tanks) while tank platoons are 3-tank formations (1 Platoon commander, 2 regulars). What would be the correct platoon size to use for that list, the 4 tank units as described by companies, or the 3 tank ones? Thanks, and sorry to keep looking in every list's nook and cranny ; I just want to try lots of different unit combinations before I buy the miniatures

Unless i am mistaken:

Transport helicopters use the normal Nato rules for movement. It is only the Warpac Assault Helicopters that act like CAS

Alex

Okay, thanks! It's what I thought as well, but I wanted to have it confirmed since I had a doubt.

Hi Kirill_GV001

the Naval Infantry Air Assault and Leningrad Arctic Motor Rifles platoons and companies both allow the use of helicopter to carry them, the Ka-29 Helix and Mi-8 Hip-C. Do we play these as we'd play NATO helos, permanently present on the battlefield with their own movement and targeting rules? Because the rules indicate that Soviet helos in general are to be used as CAS, attacking like Il-2 Sturmoviks instead of hovering and maneuvering like NATO choppers.

As Alex has suggested only Soviet Attack Helicopters follow the WarsawPact Attack Helicopter doctrine - using the Close Air Support rules to undertake their attacks.  All other Soviet Helicopters just use the standard helicopter rules. (Thanks Alex!)

I've actually got one more question about the Leningrad list... Tank companies are listed as 13-tank formations with 4-tank platoons (1 Officer, 3 Platoon commanders, 9 regular tanks) while tank platoons are 3-tank formations (1 Platoon commander, 2 regulars). What would be the correct platoon size to use for that list, the 4 tank units as described by companies, or the 3 tank ones?

Please note that the Leningrad list is currently being re-edited.  Hopefully I'll have it up later today.  I think in the version you have, if you look at the T-62 platoon you'll see under options that you can add an additional T-62A for 25 points +2-r BR.  This makes it a 4 tank platoon.  The T-72 and T-55 platoons will also have this option.  This allows you to run a full strength platoon (4 tanks) or an attrited platoon with 3 (perhaps one was lost to enemy action, engine issues, etc...)

Hope that makes sense and thanks for the questions

Richard

Just a quick note to let you know the revised Leningrad list has been uploaded. Please note I'm now calling it the 4th MRD list as I have removed all the Category B stuff like inexperienced troops in the infantry section. Hope that makes sense

Richard

Okay, great job as always.

Does that mean the game will only feature Cat. A units? It cuts off some variety from the choice in units, but pretty much all of that variety would just be fifty shades of spam, so it isn't that bad of a loss.

Kirill_GV001 wrote:Does that mean the game will only feature Cat. A units? It cuts off some variety from the choice in units, but pretty much all of that variety would just be fifty shades of spam, so it isn't that bad of a loss.

I'll never say never, but at the moment I need to prioritise the Cat A units and other WARPAC nations before I target anything else.

Thanks

Richard

Just a quick note to let you know the revised Soviet Naval Infantry list has been uploaded.

Richard