Question regarding Bren Teams (and other RoF stuff)

So my group has just gotten into Battlegroup, and we are still trying to figure out the rules. We are having a bit of an argument over British Bren Teams, and how combining Rifle and MG fire works in general. The (German) players are insisting that the three men in a Bren Team are two loaders and the gunner, and that only the gunner will shoot (with the Bren). I (British) am arguing that because the Bren gun only lists a crew of 1, all three can shoot, for twice the firepower. I am assuming that the loaders rifle shot merely represents him helping load the gun, as opposed to actually shooting. Can anyone here clarify how this actually resolves, and also, if I am correct in my interpretation, how this affects the firing of other MG's (Vickers, MG-34, etc.), and also things like Towed anti-tank guns when shooting HE.

Thanks in advance,

17

I don't play British, so I'm not informed enough to have an opinion on the correct application, but from a rational standpoint, the Bren (and BAR) only have a firepower value of 2. If they required a crew of greater than one man, using them would be at best equal to, or possibly worse than just having more rifles. Tell the German players the MG34/42 is a complex and thirsty bugger that requires lots of attention, the Bren just needs the lads to pool their ammo wherever it sets up and that's about it.

Regardless of how the Bren gun - and other magazine fed LMGS - work, it doesn't affect any of the crew-served weapons you mention in the Slightest. They are gun crew, their job is to crew their gun. If they are put in a position where they take up personal arms to defend themselves, they are no longer crewing the gun. It's one or the other. If your gun crew is so overstaffed as to have lads with nothing to do but sit around firing rifles, they are likely to find themselves chucked up the line to a short-handed infantry platoon as soon as blink!

Bren LMG = 2 ROF

So Bren team = 4 ROF


MGs are crewed weapons and have a set number of dice.


Essentially if you have an LMG like a Bren or BAR, count the figures and add +1 to get the ROF.

Crew served weapon is whatever ROF is listed for the weapon rill below it's minimum crew when it gets halved.

Out of curiosity whats the ROF of a 6 man rifle team?

 A single rifle has a ROF of 1. So 6 riflemen together have a ROF of....<drumroll>...6!  

hmm Bren (2) Vs Rifle (1) is worse than in Bolt action
unless I missing something?

So is an MG 42 Rof 3?

There are quick reference sheets in the back of every hardback for just this sort of question.

Truscott Trotter wrote:hmm Bren (2) Vs Rifle (1) is worse than in Bolt action  
unless I missing something?

So is an MG 42 Rof 3?

Buy the rules and find out.

To help out, the ROF of MG42 is 6 (bipod mounted), 8 (tripod mounted)... savage in the game (I face them enough).

Just watched a video of one of these being fired and I can see why soldiers might have wet themselves a little. Just brutal sounding.

Had the fun shooting with it successor, the MG 3. Apart from being rechamberd for NATO ammo, lowered ROF, and an added AA sight, still the same weapon. The real art was not hitting something (not as easy at it sounds, many people have the tendency to aim to high) but to squeeze only 1 or 2 rounds out of it.

Thanks for the help! Glad to hear I was getting things right. Couple more questions, then, because I don't expect them to necessarily be convinced....

1) Is there anywhere that specifically states that crewed guns are different from MG's? Reason that I ask is because the German player was trying to argue that there was nothing to stop the crew from shooting rifles, if the loader of the Bren gun could. I'd like to have a page reference to set this strawman on fire.

2) How does Vickers MG from Overlord work? In the Overlord Book, it is listed as an HMG, while in the main rules it is mentioned under Medium Machine Guns. In light of this RoF discussion, how does the loader team work? The rule only refers to Guns and Mortars, so does it count as a gun (Meaning I fire an extra shot with RoF 6 on a 5+), or do they shoot their rifles (since they are in addition to the 3-man crew), or do I get to pick?

Sincerely,
17pdr Serenity

1. Nope. The German MG team don't get anyone extra firing. Think of the extra man as a bolster to crew loses. Loose one and the gun can still fire at max rate. Listed on pg28.

2. A loader team works two fold as extra crew members to bolster gun/mortar crew loses and before firing you roll aD6, on a roll of 5-6 you get an extra shot. So, 3 shots. Only in openfire order. The team itself does not fire rifles. If a loader team option is present for the gun/mortar in the army lists then its available to that unit.

As an LMG Gunner back in the early 80s (Before as I could read and write and became a radio Op) The Gunner is working on getting accurate fire on target, the no2 is ensuring he has a mag ready to go, stow the empties and assist in tgt indication and the L/Cpl is observing and giving adjustments to the fall of shot.

17pdr Serenity wrote:Thanks for the help! Glad to hear I was getting things right. Couple more questions, then, because I don't expect them to necessarily be convinced....

1) Is there anywhere that specifically states that crewed guns are different from MG's? Reason that I ask is because the German player was trying to argue that there was nothing to stop the crew from shooting rifles, if the loader of the Bren gun could. I'd like to have a page reference to set this strawman on fire.

2) How does Vickers MG from Overlord work? In the Overlord Book, it is listed as an HMG, while in the main rules it is mentioned under Medium Machine Guns. In light of this RoF discussion, how does the loader team work? The rule only refers to Guns and Mortars, so does it count as a gun (Meaning I fire an extra shot with RoF 6 on a 5+), or do they shoot their rifles (since they are in addition to the 3-man crew), or do I get to pick?

Rule book, page 26:
"Also listed on the Small Arms table is .... the minimum crew requirements to fire the weapon. A weapon without the required crew can still fire, but count as half the normal RoF. Extra crew members do not add their RoF to crew served weapons, they have other jobs and act as reserve crew."

So it is quite clear that a MG42 on tripod with loading crew has a RoF of 8 and and not of 12. As the Bren is also listed on the Small Arms table, one could argue that a Bren Team only has a RoF of 2. But it is not really a crew served weapom with only a requirement of 1 man,like a normal rifle. It is a squad weapon and adds some extra RoF to the Rifle fire. If you upgrade your German rifle sections with a MG34 or MG42, those MG's will also act as squad weapons. While two men will act as crew the others can still fire their rifles, see page 115 for details.

When firing shells with a gun, any additional crew can not fire their rifles, as each team can only fire with one type of weapon with each fire action. See page 23, Example of Firing Basics: ."It must select wich weapon or ammunition to use." Same when firing a bazooka or Panzerfaust with a rifle squad, no rifle fire in this case.

For the Vickers, it is in both books the same, see Overlord, BtB, page 15 (or page 137 if you have the older heavy book):
"On its tripod, a Vickers has a RoF of 5 and a maximum range of 40". It requires 2 men to fire a Vickers, if the crew is reduced to 1 man then the weapon’s RoF is reduced to 3."


Greetings
Wolflord