Unofficial Battlegroup: Cold War Rules, Lists and more... (now with updated AFV Data Tables!)

Well spotted Paul.  Yes that's supposed to read ATGM Team Firing.  The QRS here and on my blog have been updated.

Richard

Glad to help.

Paul

Hi Rich, back again.

Just noticed another error in the QRS 'Observation Table',
'Obscured Gun' 2+. Should be 'Obscured Gun Firing' 2+.
'Obscured Gun Firing' 3+. Should be 'Obscured Gun' 3+.

Paul

Specific question that came up in our club game last Thursday concerned reloading ATGM vehicles.

A non-specialist vehicle like the BMP is a 1/1. Having fired an ATGM on turn 1, we assumed it has to spend turn 2 reloading, before it can fire again in turn 3.
A specialist vehicle like the FV438 is a 2/5. Having fired in turns 1 and 2, we assumed it has to spend turn 3 reloading, before it can fire again in turns 4 and 5.

The questions are;
I) were we right it takes a turn to reload?
2) does it take a reload order or is it assumed the vehicle will reload using their own initiative?
3) we didn't use man packed ATGMs, but we assume once they have fired their ready ammo (3 shots) they can be reloaded from their transport vehicle - does this need a resupply order?

Cheers, Andy

With the BMP-1 the ATGM is reloaded via a small hatch from inside the vehicle. BMP-1P and BMP-2, the crewman has to struggle up though the hatch with a new tube and fit it. I think the Swingfire was reloaded from the rear, but just asking an old QDG mate who was in guided weapons Troop.

10 minutes to reload a Striker, 5 tubes, so at least half that for an FV238, 2 Tubes.

Cheers Nick,

Not sure how those timings would equate in game terms. 1 turn delay seems about right, but the real issue is whether it needs an order or the crew can be relied on to do it anyway. My guess is they would just do it, as the crew won't drive about in action with an unloaded weapon, waiting for orders to reload.

Cheers, Andy

No, there should be no requirement for an order to re load, think "Gun fires, gun stops, cock hook and look, on looking inside there are no rounds in the chamber and no rounds in the magazine - Mag off, check fresh mag, mag on, working parts forwards and carry on firing" It is all a drill.

Gun-Pit Paul wrote:Just noticed another error in the QRS 'Observation Table',
'Obscured Gun' 2+. Should be 'Obscured Gun Firing' 2+.
'Obscured Gun Firing' 3+. Should be 'Obscured Gun' 3+.

Bugger. Yes you are right I got them the wrong way around. I don't know what it is with me and this damned observation table - but I have been stuffing up re-typing it for years!

Thanks for spotting my error

Richard

sediment wrote:Specific question that came up in our club game last Thursday concerned reloading ATGM vehicles.

A non-specialist vehicle like the BMP is a 1/1. Having fired an ATGM on turn 1, we assumed it has to spend turn 2 reloading, before it can fire again in turn 3.
A specialist vehicle like the FV438 is a 2/5. Having fired in turns 1 and 2, we assumed it has to spend turn 3 reloading, before it can fire again in turns 4 and 5.

The questions are;
I) were we right it takes a turn to reload?
2) does it take a reload order or is it assumed the vehicle will reload using their own initiative?
3) we didn't use man packed ATGMs, but we assume once they have fired their ready ammo (3 shots) they can be reloaded from their transport vehicle - does this need a resupply order?

Cheers, Andy

Hi Andy

According to the rules as currently written there are no reload times - in that a BMP-2 can fire a missile a turn until it runs out of ATGMs and then it needs to be re-supplied if it wants to fire more. There is no reload order, it is just assumed that the crew knows what it's doing and reloads as quickly as it can.

I've fiddled with the rules so often I can't remember to be sure, but I think I once had a rule - something like "Slow Reload" or "Exposed Reload" for those vehicles it either took a great deal of effort to reload, or the loader had to expose themselves to enemy fire to reload. This was scrapped as what it was giving to the game was out-weighed by what it was taking away from the game in complexity and more things to remember.

Regarding man-packed ATGM you'll note the restricted ammo rule currently is an optional rule. I've had some discussion about this on my blog and the commentary was about 50-50. I'm probably for having a 3 shot restriction. Like it says in the optional rule the team can be re-supplied from their attached (or parent) vehicle or if they don't have one - from a standard re-supply vehicle. Both these options use the standard resupply rules.

Hope that clarifies to some degree.

Richard

In BAOR list p.4 is "Mk 9 Chieftain MBT Troop", correct is "Mk 9 Chieftain MBT Platoon"

If you're querying the use of troop rather than platoon, that terminology is correct usage in the British Army. What would be a platoon of tanks in other nations is referred to as a troop in UK usage.

Cheers, Andy

No such thing as a Chieftain Platoon. Regiment-Squadron-Troop.

czaki wrote:In BAOR list p.4 is "Mk 9 Chieftain MBT Troop", correct is "Mk 9 Chieftain MBT Platoon"

Hi czaki

As Andy and Nick have said I decided to attempt to use the terminology of the nation the list covers rather than use a generic term. I’m guessing that the terminology in the final book is more likely to be like the standard Battlegroup books – as in more generic terms will probably be used.

Richard

Just deleted old soviet AFV data and down loaded V2 only to discover no stats for BMD or BTR-D family of vehicles.
Was that a mistaken omission?

I'm missing them as well, being as the VDV list is out.

Paul

VDV list with the whole BMD family is out now and I've updated the army list as well.

Thanks

Richard

I am confused by the various Russian Infantry Platoon/Company compositions, which some people I know will say is normal...

Looking at the LENINGRAD Motor Rifle Division List it states a BTR Motor Rifle Platoon Composition is 1 Platoon Command Squad and 3 Rifle Squads.  The detail shows Platoon Command Squad, Platoon Assistant Squad and Motor Rifle Squad.... so I'm thinking ok, 1 command Squad (8 men), 1 Asst. Squad (8 men) and 3 Rifle Squads (21 men), a total of 37 men for 64pts.  However, the BTR Motor Rifle Company Composition in the same list shows a Company Command (4 men) and 3 BTR Motor Rifle Platoons of 1 Command Squad, 1 Assistant Squad and 1 Motor Rifle Squad, for a total of 73 men)) for 190 pts.

Should the Motor Rilfe Platoon not include the Assistant Command Squad, but have a Command Squad and 3 Rifle Squads? Or should the composition be the same as the BMP-1 Motor Rifle Platoon from the Armoured Division list which is 1 Command Squad, 1 Assistant Command Squad and 1 Motor Rifle squad per Platoon?.

Prwright9 wrote:I am confused by the various Russian Infantry Platoon/Company compositions,

Hi mate

What you are seeing in the Leningrad list is my not so comprehensive re-reading once I changed something - so a lack of editing skills basically.

Originally a BMP or BTR Platoon was a Platoon Command Squad (which was just two guys - the Platoon Leader and the Assistant Platoon Leader) and 3 squads. The Platoon Command did not have a vehicle and had to have a special rule that allowed it to be be split across 2 squads in the platoon and they hitched a ride in their BMPs or BTRs. That's how it worked and that's what I was trying to replicate in a clunky fashion.

I then decided that was really stupid - so each BMP or BTR platoon is now made up of 3 squads:
1. The Platoon Command Squad (which is really just a standard squad with the Platoon Leader attached.
2. The Assistant Platoon Leader's Squad (which is really just a standard squad with the Assistant Platoon Leader attached.
3. A normal motor rifle squad.

That's why 2 of the 3 squads have 1 more man than the third squad.

Hope that helps and makes sense.

So for the time being, just ignore teh way the Leningrad Arctic Motor Rifle Platoon's composition section and go with the actual breakdown of the platoon in the darker box below. I'll make the change in the Leningrad list to fix that error.

Thanks for spotting the error

Richard

Thanks for the reply RIchard, makes perfect sense.

To the Hive Mind,
Anybody have a East German Ad Hoc list I could use until Richard comes up with one? Any input would be helpful! I realize that it would be mostly based on a Soviet Model. I do have Cold War Cmdr. but its not structured like Battlegroup.
Respectfully,
Gunny

There is a Team Yankee supplement that covers the East Germans. I don't have a copy myself, but what I've seen has some useful lists. Lots of T-55s and T-72s from what I remember facing before I decided Team Yankee wasn't for me. Cold War Commander lists have one stand equivalent to a platoon, so it might be possible to use their lists as a basis - there are more detailed and less generic East German lists on the old Blitzkrieg Commander web site.

Cheers, Andy

Hi Rich

Just downloaded the Soviet AFV Cards.

Two things I have noticed.....
1) BMDs are not there, and
2) BMP-1P and BM-27 are done twice (BM-27 should be BM-22, but I can live with that)

When can we see the NATO ones?

Paul

Thanks for the feedback on the cards.

I haven’t included the VDV vehicles in this iteration as Richard said they were draft/wip.

Noted on the duplicates - I’ll pick those up for v2. Any other errrors please let me know and I’ll fix them too.

Baor are in progress - hopefully done this week.

Rich

Have noticed in the rules that Auto-cannons have a range of 70" (pg. 5),
but on pg. 22 they have 50" range. Also, on the Auto-cannon Table (pg. 10) 50".
I take it that pg. 5 is wrong (a typo).

Paul

Yeah bugger......

Yes, the 70" on page 5 is a typo - a spot I forgot to change between variations in the rules.

I'll fix that. Thanks for spotting

R