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RichardC
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Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:08 pm
Here's a spot for you to put any feedback/comments/suggestions or questions regarding the BG:NORTHAG West German lists.

Thanks

Richard
CAG 19
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:06 pm
West German vehicles:

M113A1 G - Command Post
M113A1 G - Signals
Beobachtungspanzer

Have armour profile 2/2/1/1 all other M113 variants have 2/1/1/1

Fuchs is listed as having 3 MGs on Pintle mount.
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:42 am
CAG 19 wrote:M113A1 G - Command Post
M113A1 G - Signals
Beobachtungspanzer

Have armour profile 2/2/1/1 all other M113 variants have 2/1/1/1

I'm trying to work out if that was a mistake or intentional. Realistic me say definitely a mistake - so I'll fix that.

Fuchs is listed as having 3 MGs on Pintle mount.

Fixed. I know I've seen pics of it with 3 MGs but I know believe the rear two are those carried by the troops in the rear.

Thanks for picking up those.

Richard
CAG 19
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:44 pm
Leopard 2A1 missing the Advanced Armour Special rule ?
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:05 pm
CAG 19 wrote:Leopard 2A1 missing the Advanced Armour Special rule ?

Hi CAG 19

My understanding is that the initial batches of Leopard 2's did not have Chobham armour hence no Advanced Armour in the stat line. I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong!

Thanks

Richard
CAG 19
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 pm
Don't mind either way. It came out as I was cross checking the HESH/HEAT and special armour handling rules.

2A1 wasn't fielded until 1982 - 1983

"But it was revealed in 1976 that the early Leopard 2 models armour was also based on Chobham, thou it did not share the same technology unique to Chobham armour AKA Burlington.
17 prototypes were built in 1971 for field-testing, mounting various cannons including the L7A3 105mm & the Rheinmetall L44 120mm, with different fire control systems. Eventually the Rheinmetall L44 120mm smoothbore was selected as the main gun.
The US also received some of these prototypes and carried out field tests of various cannon and fire control systems well into 1976 whilst testing their own XM1 (which would become the M1 Abram’s). The US Army found that both prototypes were equally matched in propulsion and firepower, but the XM1 Chobham armour was better than the Leo2’s armour."

Also iirc the comment during the Challenger 2/M1A1/Leopard 2 selection for the RAC when the Chally reversed into the L2 and alledgedly cracked the armour
nickdives
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:30 am
The Chally 1 reversing into the Leopard was just after the disastrous Royal Hussars run at the Canada cup, think it happened on Hohne ranges, and was labelled as the C1 getting it's revenge.
SailorMoon
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:39 am
Just spotted two mistakes:
Leopard 1A3 shouldnt have Advanced Stabiliser, it was introduced in 1A4 version
Jaguar 2 shouldnt have hull MG, it has smoke launchers instead.

Also i have a question about additional Marder PzG squad in HQ section. This guys ride marder without Milan, but have PzF44 and their total cost is 40 points. In comparsion, regular Marder squad have Milan, but doesnt have PzF44 and their total cost is 35 points. Seems odd to me.
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:02 pm
Hi SailorMoon
Thanks for the pick-ups on the West German AFV data table. I've fixed those now.

You are also correct on the cost of the Panzergrenadier Forward HQ's additional Marder squad. I agree that the cost is too high and have now lowered it to 25.

Thanks

Richard
SailorMoon
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:29 am
Richard, ive spotted another strange thing about FRG tank trops: while all combat platoons have veteran rating, tank HQ and recon still has regular rating, shouldn't they be veterans too?
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:33 am
Hi SailorMoon

Another good pick up. If you look at the Additional Main Battle Tank section under TANK UNITS you'll see that the Leo 2's have veteran crews while the Leo 1's have regular crews. I've now adjusted all the BR information under the Leopard 1 Platoon so they show as regular. I've gone into the Panzer Forward HQ and adjusted the Leo 2A1 and 2A4 to have "+1-v BR" (as Leo 2s are worth 4 BR each rather than the standard 3 - and are veterans. The Recce tanks are all Leo 1's so they also remain Regular.

Thanks for helping me fix things

Richard
SailorMoon
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:38 am
Thank you for the quick response and all the great work you've done so far!
P.S. Tomorrow we will playtest the rules with german vs soviet 500p lists, i will write our thoughts afterwards.
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:49 pm
Thanks SailorMoon

I would have like to post up the slightly revised West German list, but I'm not at work until next week and my tech at home is really old - so I'm not able to do it here. Not much has changed apart from the Veteran/regular thing we discussed, the PG Squad attached to the Fwd HQ went down to 25 pts and no M72 LAWs in the list

Richard
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:13 am
Another spot: Flakpanzer Gepard have 2/1/1/1 armor stats. But its basep on Leopard 1, shouldn't it have somewhat similar stats to Leo1?
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Gunbird
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:47 pm
Another spot: Flakpanzer Gepard have 2/1/1/1 armor stats. But its basep on Leopard 1, shouldn't it have somewhat similar stats to Leo1?

It has slightly thinner armour vs the Leopard 1 and is rated vs 14.5mm, rifle calibre bulet and shell splinters
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:18 am
My understanding is the same as Johan's. below is from Military-Today.com

"Hull of the Gepard provides protection against small caliber cannons, while turret protection is only against small arms fire and artillery shell splinters. It is also fitted with NBC protection system."

Thanks

Richard
GaiusHoratius
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:08 pm
I was just looking through the west german list and noticed some errors -nothing really serious,you did a good job:

- EW section can also be on a TPz Fuchs variant called "Hummel"
- The Panzergrenadiers had (still have) 4 Marder per platoon, only 2 of those have Milan
- The SP Heavy Mortar Team in the Panzergrenadierplatoon seems odd, the mortars werer never parcelled out to PzGren platoons.
- PzFst 44 is not incorrect but was never called that in the bundeswehr, only leichte Panzerfaust
- Seeing the tanks as veteran and the panzergrenadiers as regular seems odd, skill and morale varied of course but the level of training was generally equal. Even the CAT Competition had   an equivalent in NORTHAG (forgot the name, the trophy was a viking longship). Maybe both regular with an option for veteran?
-The tank units should include M48s as an option, Heimatschutzbrigade 51 (a fully equipped regular mechanized brigade despite the name) of 6th Panzer Division in Schleswig-Holstein had them till the end of the 1980s.
- FASCAM can be shot from both LARS and M109s
- Pionierpanzer Dachs seems to be a bit too early in the list (introduced from 1988 onward), its predecessor is called Pionierpanzer 1 and was based on the Bergepanzer 2
- 120 mm mortars are not brigade artillery, they were only used in the infantry and panzergrenadier battalions. Each brigade had a 155mm tube artillery battalion (type depending on the date you want to set the game in), divisions had LARS and 155mm, 203mm are corps artillery.
- The alpha jet has 27mm cannons, no gatlings. Maybe heavy autocannons in the rules?
- Brigades have artillery battalions and reconnaissance companies, not companies and platoons.

Keep up the good work!
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:03 pm
First of all thanks GaiusHoratius for looking through the list and providing such valuable feedback. It's really appreciated. I'll respond to each point below:

EW section can also be on a TPz Fuchs variant called "Hummel"

Thanks – I’ll add that

The Panzergrenadiers had (still have) 4 Marder per platoon, only 2 of those have Milan

Wow – that’s interesting as everything I looked at talked about Panzergrenadiers having platoons of 3 Marders. I even have a quite detailed (down to what each man was armed with) breakdown of an 11 Marder Company with a Company CO Marder, plus a support Marder (neither of which have Milan) – plus 3 Marders in 3 platoon with 9 Milan in total. This matches what is in Isby/Kamps Armies of NATO’s Central Front. Do you have some sources I could look at to back this up? Unless I have completely misread the sources I’ve looked at this changes everything!! I’m assuming it’s the same in the M113 platoon as well?

The SP Heavy Mortar Team in the Panzergrenadierplatoon seems odd, the mortars werer never parcelled out to PzGren platoons.

I’d suggest that is my attempt to align it with standard Battlegroup. I’ll leave it in the list as a Platoon support option but if you don’t want to use it – please feel free to not use it.

PzFst 44 is not incorrect but was never called that in the bundeswehr, only leichte Panzerfaust

OK – will change that

Seeing the tanks as veteran and the panzergrenadiers as regular seems odd, skill and morale varied of course but the level of training was generally equal. Even the CAT Competition had an equivalent in NORTHAG (forgot the name, the trophy was a viking longship). Maybe both regular with an option for veteran?

You’re right – I’ll pull the tanks back to regular to align them with panzergrenadiers. I’ll have a think about the veteran option.

The tank units should include M48s as an option, Heimatschutzbrigade 51 (a fully equipped regular mechanized brigade despite the name) of 6th Panzer Division in Schleswig-Holstein had them till the end of the 1980s.

That unit will be shown in a new Jaeger list which is nearly finished.

FASCAM can be shot from both LARS and M109s

I realise that. The LARS is not available in the artillery section but is available (along with LARS FASCAM in the Additional Fire Support.

Pionierpanzer Dachs seems to be a bit too early in the list (introduced from 1988 onward), its predecessor is called Pionierpanzer 1 and was based on the Bergepanzer 2

OK – I’ll remove the Pionierpanzer Dachs and just leave the Bergepanzer 2 in.

120 mm mortars are not brigade artillery, they were only used in the infantry and panzergrenadier battalions. Each brigade had a 155mm tube artillery battalion (type depending on the date you want to set the game in), divisions had LARS and 155mm, 203mm are corps artillery.

I’ll pull the 203mm guns out of the division list and just have them in the corps section. I have no problem with lower lever guns being available on higher level rolls – but I’ll lower the chances. The Infantry/PG battalions make up the brigade – so maybe the Brigades artillery battalion has nothing available but an infantry battalion in reserve has mortar tubes available. Make sense?

The alpha jet has 27mm cannons, no gatlings. Maybe heavy autocannons in the rules?

I guess the reason I went with gatling light autocannon is that the Mauser BK-27 is described as a “revolver” canon. As it doesn’t have multiple barrels, perhaps I should just pull it back to “autocannon”

Brigades have artillery battalions and reconnaissance companies, not companies and platoons.

My bad – I’ll make those changes

Thanks again

Richard
GaiusHoratius
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:47 pm
Hi Richard,
My rather forceful statement about the Panzergrenadiers is only partially correct - I should not have worked from memory. Four Marders per platoon is correct for Heeresstruktur 3, three per platoon is correct for Heeresstruktur 4 . This was changed beginning in 1980 and took some time to implement. So the number really depends on the date you want the fictional WW3 to start, 70s and early 80s or early to late 80s. M113 equipped units are not mentioned. Source is the German army website deutschesheer.de if you can read German. From the weapon systems you have in the list my guess is late 80s?
The number of Milan launchers bought was not enough to equip all vehicles, so every Marder and Fuchs (in the armored engineer companies) can equip them but not all have them. It can also be used by the dismounted Schützentrupp (armored infantry section).
In addition I also found there that Divisional artillery had MARS (MLRS, not sure wenn they were introduced) and 175mm howitzers in Heeresstruktur 4 plus the ones already discussed.
I hope that helps. If you want some feedback on the Jäger list I would be happy to look at it.
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:20 am
The West German Panzer List has now been updated on the main thread. For ease I've put it here as well

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uv6_KlwHN1tg8csHofziyJyag_fQ5Vcv

I'll put up the draft Jaeger list shortly for review

Richard
Eukie
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on West German Lists

on Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:28 am
Noticed some discrepancies in the Leopards and their descriptions:

Leopard 1 & 2 Tanks
Leopard 2A1: The thermal sight was already present on the last 180 of 380 2A0s built. The most significant differences between the late 2A0 and the 2A1 is that the 2A1 removes the hated crosswind sensor and redesigns the commander's periscope for better visibility.

Leopard 2A4: There's three different versions of West German 2A4s, and they have significant differences:
-Leopard 2A4, series 5 and the 96 first vehicles of series 6: The analogue FCS used from the 2A0 onwards is replaced with a digital FCS. Note that it is not more armoured than the 2A1!
-Leopard 2A4, 54 vehicles of series 6 and series 7: Replaced the spaced armour of the earlier models with composite inserts. These can be distinguished from earlier Leopard 2s by the redesigned skirt.
-Leopard 2A4, series 8: Fitted a muzzle reference mirror to the barrel of the gun. There's also rumours it had improved composite technology in the skirts.
The 2A4 in the AFV sheet is presented as significantly more armoured than the 2A1, which is only the case for circa 178 out of 695 2A4s.

Leopard 1A3: The fifth series of Leopard 1 came in two variants: the Leopard 1A2, 232 built, and the Leopard 1A3, 110 built.

Leopard 1A5: Keep in mind, the West German 1A5s are all upgraded 1A1A4s. They have the same armour. The description in Panzer Division Battlegroup document could be read to imply they're differently armoured from the 1A1A3s. The applique is also not great as far as armour goes, it's just rubber plates at a minimal stand-off distance (I had a friend touch one at Munster to check). I'm personally somewhat doubtful of the idea that the 1A3 had worse armour than the 1A5, to be honest, though armour technology is a difficult subject on the best of days.
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