Feedback/Comments/Questions on Playtest Rules

Here's a spot for you to put any feedback/comments/suggestions or questions regarding the BG:NORTHAG playtest rules.

Thanks

Richard

Richard, I have persuaded Pegasus Hobbies and Games in Monmouth to let me have a 6x4 table on Saturday to playtest the rules in 15mm. Just in case I have missed it what are the game size descriptions and rough points. The standard BG points don't map across due to the increased cost of MBTs. A small soviet Combat Recce Patrol (BRD) of four vehicles comes in at around 170 - 200 points (depending on MBT and options). A MR Company with a supporting Tank Platoon is over 500 pts (again depending on options and MBT). What have you played out so far ?

Hi CAG 19

Actually this is not super simple to answer. I've found when you play games with the major NATO nations vs Cat A Soviet forces it feels like the standard Battlegroup squad/platoon/company/battalion points-to-D6 orders don't completely match up. However recently I've been playing a few games with the Danes vs SNI which are a lot cheaper - and the games fit quite nicely to the standard BG points/orders mix.

For this reason I've not currently put in a table like you find in the BG rulebook which lays it all out nicely for you. I think you use that standard table as a starting point and see what happens. If in a normal BG game of 500 pt game you get a couple of tank platoons and an infantry platoon and 2D6 orders - then if you put together a similar sized force in the playtest set - but it costs 750 pts plus - I think you should still go with the 2D6 orders. Make sense?

We've played games with 400 pts up to games around 1440 pts and probably some early games much higher. I think for a first run through a lower point game is a better idea.

Richard

Thanks. I will set up some 750 point forces at 2D6 and see how it goes (will post them up here once done)

Rich

Dumb question no. 1
What are the Ammo levels of the tanks etc?
or, ain't there any?

Paul

Hi Paul

There are no ammo counts for main gun rounds in this version of the playtest rules so you haven't missed anything. Self-propelled artillery pieces still count ammo but the rest of the time you only count missile ammunition.

Thanks

Richard

Cheers Rich

More questions will come along, I suspect.

Paul

Simple starter game what I thought would be a reasonable small game to just run through any subtle changes.  

FORCES
US Mech Inf Platoon in M113 supported by an M1 against a BMP-2 Platoon supported by a T-72.

Points and BR
US 290 Points/26 Br/1 Officer
Soviets 215 Points/16 Br/1 Officer

Points to Note
US Squad firepower ROF 18  (8 Dismounts is incorrect against FM7-7, should be 7, however all that does is lose 1 ROF) - 2 x GL @2, 2 x SAW @5, 3/4 M16 @1
Soviet Squad firepower ROF 8/7 (RPG Gunner doesn't have a long arm)  RPK-74 as a Light MG only generates ROF of 3

AT Penetration Table
30mm Cannon vs M113 only pins 41% of the time. And, 27 % of destroying it.
M2HB vs BMP-2 looks about right.

Thoughts
M2HB used to fire AP Pinning shots at the BMPs.  Soviet dismounts make an early decision to try and survive and then are shot out of the game by the US Squad Firepower.  M1 Abrams just had to be menacing and sat on Ambush fire.  MICV isn't going to go up against it in the open and give away easy BR.  

Questions
Historically anticipated result, but is there a reason why NATO get such high BR.  A Soviet BMP-2 company generates BR36 for around 500 points,  US could field 2 M113 Platoons and an M1 for BR46.

Why can you elect to fire ATGW as area fire ?

Why can you not fire AAMG at CAS......?

If you have advanced optics/laser range finder why can you not pre-measure firing distances ?

Hi CAG 19. I'll tackle your questions/feedback tomorrow morning my time.

Richard

CAG 19 wrote:FORCES
US Mech Inf Platoon in M113 supported by an M1 against a BMP-2 Platoon supported by a T-72.

Points and BR
US 290 Points/26 Br/1 Officer
Soviets 215 Points/16 Br/1 Officer

All good.

Points to Note
US Squad firepower ROF 18  (8 Dismounts is incorrect against FM7-7, should be 7, however all that does is lose 1 ROF) - 2 x GL @2, 2 x SAW @5, 3/4 M16 @1
Soviet Squad firepower ROF 8/7 (RPG Gunner doesn't have a long arm)  RPK-74 as a Light MG only generates ROF of 3

Don’t forget a standard BMP-2 squad is 2 guys less than the US squad as currently listed.

Note you can use the RPG against Infantry using the Aimed Fire HE rules.  You can also add a BG-15 UGL and swap out the RPK for a PKM.  You do have some options for upping the Soviet RoF.

You can also fire the autocannon at the US infantry.  Two shots at RoF 8 will always help out.

AT Penetration Table
30mm Cannon vs M113 only pins 41% of the time. And, 27 % of destroying it.
M2HB vs BMP-2 looks about right.

Not sure about the pinning but to me it looks like the 30mm autocannon should have more of a chance to take out an M113.

Why not fire the ATGM at the M113 from outside of the .50cal range?

Thoughts
M2HB used to fire AP Pinning shots at the BMPs.  Soviet dismounts make an early decision to try and survive and then are shot out of the game by the US Squad Firepower.  M1 Abrams just had to be menacing and sat on Ambush fire.  MICV isn't going to go up against it in the open and give away easy BR.  

Not sure how you a .50cal for suppressing fire against a BMP-2.  You’d have to be within 10” to have a 6+ chance.  If you are using Aimed Fire with AP shells you have a chance of pinning (or destroying) or you can pin through forcing morale checks and having your opponent fail them (if your opponent is me… I roll a lot of 1’s for morale checks!)

In our experience of straight up gun fights between infantry – they are very nasty in this system.

Our games tend to have a fair amount of cover etc.

Questions
Historically anticipated result, but is there a reason why NATO get such high BR.  A Soviet BMP-2 company generates BR36 for around 500 points,  US could field 2 M113 Platoons and an M1 for BR46.

I’ll be the first to admit that the points in the lists are not 100% perfect.  I don’t know Warwick’s system for creating the BR scores, but have tried to replicate it where I could.  Part of the higher BR score for the US side is that each Platoon has 1 more AFV with a full command squad, with an officer with the artillery spotter skill. The Platoon also has 2 GPMGs, a load of SAWs etc (as you point out) more men across each squad.  They also have 3 reasonable short range ATGMs (that can split off in small teams and are pretty hard to spot (until they fire).  I’m sure the points will be looked at in more detail as time goes by.

Why can you elect to fire ATGW as area fire ?

You can only use ATGM in Area Fire to engage Helicopters.  These is simply as this is the BG mechanism for engaging aircraft.

Why can you not fire AAMG at CAS......?

You can.  It’s under Opportunistic Air Defence Artillery on page 49.  It's just really hard to hit Jet Aircraft with it.

If you have advanced optics/laser range finder why can you not pre-measure firing distances ?

It’s something to consider, however I was trying to keep this mod as close to BG as possible so that meant no pre-measuring.

Thanks for the great feedback - I'm not really a stats & percentages guy - so having someone else take a close look at those things is very helpful.

Richard

Not sure how you a .50cal for suppressing fire against a BMP-2. You’d have to be within 10” to have a 6+ chance. If you are using Aimed Fire with AP shells you have a chance of pinning (or destroying) or you can pin through forcing morale checks and having your opponent fail them (if your opponent is me… I roll a lot of 1’s for morale checks!)

The later, an observation from the WW2 version that carries forward. The M2HB has an AP capability so can (Rules as written) use the AP shell section to pin at normal fire ranges rather than as MG fire as supressing.

You can. It’s under Opportunistic Air Defence Artillery on page 49. It's just really hard to hit Jet Aircraft with it.

Page 48 under engaging Close Air Support says you cannot engage with opportunistic ADA as jets move to fast.

Noted about squad upgrades. We played this as standard forces to see where the balance lies. I think my comments about the US SAW is that as written they take the same stats as a full Machine gun but have no requirement for a second crew to continually feed it the ammo. The RPK and LSW are essentially heavier barrelled versions of a standard rifle so giving them ROF 3 seems a bit high (the L4A4 should have the Bren stats for example) but if the M249 is ROF 5 you need to do something to keep the disparity from becoming to large. Pointy stick rule would see a US player splitting the squad into two 9+ ROF teams.

30mm APHE has less chance of pinning a unit than the US Squad in suppressing fire. For me it is about game balance.

CAG 19 wrote:Page 48 under engaging Close Air Support says you cannot engage with opportunistic ADA as jets move to fast.

yeah - sorry mate - you are right. I really should read what I wrote a little better. Thinking back now, I decided that I needed to separate ADA into 3 different categories, each of which had to be different and from Opportunistic ADA all the way to Radar Directed ADA had to get increasingly better. Not allowing opportunistic ADA to engage CAS seemed to represent the best differentiation for what is the worst type of ADA. I also didn't want to see Bradlleys and BMP-2s, which should be able to engage helicopters with their main guns, shooting down CAS aircraft.

CAG 19 wrote:Noted about squad upgrades. We played this as standard forces to see where the balance lies. I think my comments about the US SAW is that as written they take the same stats as a full Machine gun but have no requirement for a second crew to continually feed it the ammo. The RPK and LSW are essentially heavier barrelled versions of a standard rifle so giving them ROF 3 seems a bit high (the L4A4 should have the Bren stats for example) but if the M249 is ROF 5 you need to do something to keep the disparity from becoming to large. Pointy stick rule would see a US player splitting the squad into two 9+ ROF teams.

30mm APHE has less chance of pinning a unit than the US Squad in suppressing fire. For me it is about game balance.

I get what you are saying and they are really good points. I might start a new thread to discuss small arms RoF as I've discussed a couple of other ideas elsewhere.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Richard

Hey just joined the forum today and wanted to say you've done some heroic work on this. I'm really looking forward to getting some games in.
Chris Walters

Thanks Chris - much obliged

Richard

Hi Richard

Could you explain the thinking behind the Warpac Assault Helicopters please? There is some discussion within out group about the rules.

Did you envisage them using the CAS rules in terms of movement and being able to use the two CAS orders. So you would place the Warpact
Assault Helicopter on the table anywhere and shoot a target before it flies off again, and then check if it stays around.

Or

Does it use the CAS rules for being shot at only (minus the jet rule)? but uses the helicopter movement and orders for everything else?

Thanks

Alex

alicks wrote:Could you explain the thinking behind the Warpac Assault Helicopters please? There is some discussion within out group about the rules.

Did you envisage them using the CAS rules in terms of movement and being able to use the two CAS orders. So you would place the Warpact
Assault Helicopter on the table anywhere and shoot a target before it flies off again, and then check if it stays around.

Or

Does it use the CAS rules for being shot at only (minus the jet rule)? but uses the helicopter movement and orders for everything else?

Hi Alex

Sorry for the delay in responding – life has been rather busy lately.

If you look on Page 46 of the rules under Helicopter Doctrine, you’ll see a section labelled “Warsaw Pact Attack Helicopters”. That section explains my thinking behind the WarPac Helo rules and is a distillation of what I’ve gathered from my reading.

To use WarPac attack helos I would place them anywhere I wanted on the table (ie same as the CAS rules) and use one of the two CAS orders. Obviously “Manoeuvre, Lock & Shoot” will only apply to Soviet helos armed with AAM.

This does make Soviet helos easier to shoot down as any SAM or ADA asset on the table can take a shot at them as they pull up and dive onto the target, and they don’t get the benefit of the Jet fighter rule.

On the other had Soviet helos have a decent number of damage points and some have a reasonable CDR and all bar the Mi-8TVK are armoured so this will help. Noting of course that the speculative Mi-28 Havoc uses western helo rules.

WarPac helos also can drop bombs which is probably more of a scenario specific thing to be honest.

Rather than use the CAS rules to stay on the board (where you need a 5+ as a base) a WarPac helo gets to use the Attack Helicopter Another Attack Run Table where the base to come back is a 3+.

I hope that answers your question.

Thanks

Richard

Hi Richard

just a couple of quick questions, sorry if you've already answered them elsewhere

weve noticed the ATGM hit table is different in the rulebook than it is on the quick reference sheet, the quick reference sheet having a much bigger 3+ to hit bracket, which of the two tables is correct

and weve been trying to find the rules for SAM posts (stinger and javelin) but cant find mention of any differences between them and the regular versions aside from the fact that they're more expensive, can you point me in the right direction of their rules please.

Cheers

Nath

Hello
I have any questions about ATGM.

The BRDM-2/Sagger have an ammo rating of 6/1, this means i have 6 missles to fire and i can reload one time 6 missles, is this correct?

My second question is, how many missels can i fire per "Shoot & Track" order? All missles or one per order?

The last question is, when i reload the missles, must the vehicle stay stationary or wait one Round?

Greetings
Fabian

Hated wrote:weve noticed the ATGM hit table is different in the rulebook than it is on the quick reference sheet, the quick reference sheet having a much bigger 3+ to hit bracket, which of the two tables is correct

Hi Nath

I have a feeling I've updated the QRS more recently so I'd suggest using the QRS ATGM To Hit table for now. I think I found it just to difficult to hit things with the table in the rulebook compared to reality.

Hated wrote:and weve been trying to find the rules for SAM posts (stinger and javelin) but cant find mention of any differences between them and the regular versions aside from the fact that they're more expensive, can you point me in the right direction of their rules please.

Ahh - caught out again. Right now there are no special rules rules for SAM Posts - you just get 3 ready to use missiles rather than 1. Happy to take suggestions!

Richard

IcEmAn wrote:The BRDM-2/Sagger have an ammo rating of 6/1, this means i have 6 missles to fire and i can reload one time 6 missles, is this correct?

Hi Fabian - yes that is correct

My second question is, how many missiles can i fire per "Shoot & Track" order? All missles or one per order?

Just one missile per Shoot & Track order - so I missile per turn. Assuming your BRDM-2/AT-3 doesn't want to move and has a target every turn it could sit there had shoot every turn for 6 turns.

The last question is, when i reload the missles, must the vehicle stay stationary or wait one Round?

Below is from the new rules on reloading ATGMs which apply unless your vehicle has the fast reloader trait:

"A vehicle mounting ATGMs that has fired its ready to use missiles and wishes to reload must follow the following rules. The AFV must spend one turn stationary. During that turn the AFV may do nothing else as they reload. The AFV cannot be given orders or activated. In the next turn the AFV can be activated as normal and is considered to have its ready to use missiles available again. A vehicle mounting ATGMS that has fired off its entire missile load must be re-supplied as normal and can immediately fire after it is re-supplied."

Hope that explains it to you

R

Thank you, now everything is clear

Fabian

RichardC wrote:

Hated wrote:and weve been trying to find the rules for SAM posts (stinger and javelin) but cant find mention of any differences between them and the regular versions aside from the fact that they're more expensive, can you point me in the right direction of their rules please.

Ahh - caught out again.  Right now there are no special rules rules for SAM Posts - you just get 3 ready to use missiles rather than 1.  Happy to take suggestions!

Richard

after a brief discussion with my group we batted around the idea of lml posts perhaps being able to take a second shot if the initial one misses due to the fact that the operator and post are immediately ready to go again if the initial missile misses

so maybe something like this

Initial lock success

javelin LML post loses contested roll off (misses/aircraft avoids ect)

user gets one more attempt to fire again as he is already tracking the target and the post is immediately ready to fire again.

thats the best idea we came up with to make it a viable alternative choice. whether or not that may be a bit too powerful im not sure. it wouldnt necessarily make it any deadlier as its still only going to get one hit maximum but may make it a bit more reliable which would justify its increased costs

cheers

Nath

Hi Nath

Thanks (to you and your group) for putting some thought in the LML posts. Upon reading your thoughts I went back and had another look at the rules. I guess I'm not super comfortable with giving an LML post an immediate second shot so I came up with a couple of alternate options. Just ideas mind you.

The first and simplest would be to raise the attack modifier on the Javelin Post to +2. Re the Stinger, perhaps we could lower the single Stinger AM to +2 and leave the Stinger Post AM at +3

The other option (which may work in conjunction with the first option) would be to allow the SAM post to immediately go back onto Ambush Fire (after firing a SAM) without the need for an order.

How do they sound?

Richard