Unofficial Battlegroup: Cold War Rules, Lists and more... (now with updated AFV Data Tables!)

Just a quick note to let you know I have added the West German AFV Data Cards to this thread (at the beginning). These beauties are created by Greg (Chairborne) and he has done a terrific job.

Thanks

Richard

Rich

A quick query, on the Gun Data tables (V.2)....

Soviet 30mm 2A42 - 4, 4, 4, 3, 3, 2

British 30mm Rarden - 4, 4, 4, 3, 2, 1
Same as the 35mm Gepard and 40mm L/70 Bofors

How come the Soviet weapon is more powerful than the others?

Paul

Hi Paul

Another good find. I don't think there is anything here about better performing BMP-2 main guns - just a simple error on my part as usual!

Thanks for the pic up. I'll fix immediately.

Richard

Hi everyone

Just letting you know the new East German Panzer Division Battlegroup has been added to the second post in this thread along with all the other army lists.

Thanks

Richard

In the Dutch Recce list I'm missing the M113 C&V 25mm option. It is not listed in the vehicle sheet either.

Gunbird wrote:In the Dutch Recce list I'm missing the M113 C&V 25mm option. It is not listed in the vehicle sheet either.

Hi Johan. Re: the AFV data sheet I most likely used the Canadian data sheet as the starting point and forgot to exchange the 25mm autocannon for the HMG. I think that is the only difference.

Checking the Canadian list it looks like the points are the same so it's referring only to the .50 cal variant. My understanding was that all Dutch C&V had the 25mm autocannon turret by 1986 and no .50 cal armed C&V were left. Is this correct. If so I simply need to change the points cost. If not, I'll need to add the 25mm variant as an upgrade option.

Thanks

Richard

According to my handy dandy manual:


Everywhere I look there is only the 25mm, this is the staff group (the M113's are the radar recce vehicles):


And the in the field recce group.


All 25mm cannon armed.

That is a handy dandy manual! What year is it showing? Is there a diagram that shows the actual platoon (VERKPEL?) rather than the HQ group (ESKST?)

Richard

It has no date printed on it, but it does come with a add on sheet dated April 1989 by the previous owner, Hussar Rakim.

Just realised my previous upload went a bit wrong, so here are the VerkPel on normal level (lower pic) and on Brigade level (top pic)

Cool. Very useful.

Thanks mate

R

Thanks for the GDR list!! (btw...why is it in the NATO section? )

Just letting you know there are now 3 DDR lists - Motor Rifle, Panzer and Paramilitary Battlegroup lists at the top of this thread. The East German lists are now in the WARPAC section as well!!!

Thanks

Richard

Great Job, really

since Battlefront is about to release Czechs for WW3 - how about a Czech list ?

A couple of Czech lists are in the works and should be up in the next month or so.

Thanks

Richard

Was informed of the existence of this by someone I know, had a glance, saw to my joy there were playable Norwegians, and read through the AFV list. I soon realized you'd used Fire & Fury as a base. F&F isn't all that accurate, so here's a list of corrections and suggestions that came to mind while reading through the Norwegian documents:

SPELLING MISTAKES
A general note here: A lot of times you seem to use a vehicle's role as its name. I think this is overly awkward but even if I accept this as a stylistic choice, it should be applied consistently. E.g. the NM116 Panserjager should coexist with the M48A2 Stridsvogn, not the M48A2.

M106 Bomekasterpanservogen: M106 Bomberkasterpanservogn. Consider "M106 TBK".
M113A1 Panzervogen: M113A1 Panservogn. More properly, either "M113 Pansret Personellkjøretøy" or "M113A1 Transport-Panservogn".
M125 Bomekasterpanservogen: M125 Bombekasterpanservogn. Consider "M125 BK".
NM135 Stormpanservogen: NM135 Stormpanservogn.
NM195 Luftvenpanservogen: NM195 Luftvernpanservogn.
NM196 Ambulance: This should either be the NM196 Hjelpeplasspanservogn or the NM200 Ambulansepanservogn.
NM198 Kommandopanservogen: NM198 Kommandopanservogn.
M109N: Should be M109G.
NM 189 Ingeniorpanservogn: NM189 Ingeniørpanservogn. You can't drop the line through the o, it's important, like the umlauts in German.

UNITS THAT ARE WRONG
Leopard 1A1NO: The Leopard 1A1NO was made from ex-German Leopard 1A1A2s as part of a CFE cascade, and arrived in August 1991. I'm not entirely sure what your timeframe is for this game but the 1A1NO is a very late arrival. Also, the gun is an L7A3, not L7A1.
Greyhound Armoured Car: Are you sure about this? To the best of my knowledge the Greyhound left Norwegian service before the mid-70s.
M48A2: The M48A2, Norwegian or not, does not have a 105 mm gun. It has a 90 mm gun, as is standard on M48s.

UNITS THAT SEEM TO BE MISSING
Leopard 1NO: Norway bought a 78 Leopard 1s in 1968. These arrived in 1970-1971.
Leopard 1A5NO: Norway modernized their Leopard 1NOs in the late 80s with the EMES-18 system, gun stabilization, and APFSDS.
M109A3GN: Norwegian version of the West German M109A3G from the late 80s.
M24 Chaffee: A joke at this point, but 24 were in use with the Home Guard until they were scrapped in 1993 for CFE compliance.
M577: Norway had several of these. I'm not entirely sure on the introduction of the NM198, but the M557 is probably the more appropriate vehicle.
Weasel: These were in service with the Home Guard to carry the M40 recoilless rifle until 1984.
Bv-202 with ENTAC: According to a painting in a Norwegian mess hall, these left service as late as 1990. They'd been mostly phased out and replaced by the TOW system, though.

BATTLEGROUPS
First a note: Norway had been a producer of the improved M72A3 since the 70s, so we wouldn't be using M72A2s, which as far as I can tell were never even in service. We might even have also used the M72A4, known as the M72F1 in Norwegian service, though I've been unable to confirm the service date on the M72A4. You seem to have made the 84mm Carl Gustav M2 present in every Norwegian squad, with M72s being optional. It's really quite the opposite: the M72 was issued almost one to a man, while the Carl Gustav was usually a platoon-level asset.

The Type 90 Brigade is presented as being fully mechanized. This is not the case. A Type 90 brigade comprised one armoured battalion with one mechanized company and two infantry battalions in Bv-202s.

Type 90 Mechanized Infantry Platoon
A 90-KOP mechanized infantry platoon would (almost) never be armed with regular M113s. By the time the KOP-90 reforms roll out, the mechanized infantry's M113s have all been converted to NM135s. The only exception that comes to mind are the M113s stationed in Lebanon as part of UNFIL. A mechanized infantry platoon would not have Bv-202s, because then it would not be mechanized, it would be motorized: it seems the Type 90 Motorized Infantry Platoon is missing, too.

The organization of a Type 90 Mechanized Infantry Platoon for 1993 (probably applicable to the latter half of the 80s) is as follows:

Track 1
Platoon Commander/Track Commander, dismounts, armed with MP5
Gunner, mans the turret
Driver, armed with MP5
Reserve Track Commander, takes over when the Platoon Commander dismounts, armed with MP5
Squad Leader, dismounts, armed with MP5
RCL-Gunner, dismounts, armed with Carl Gustav M2 recoilless rifle
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
Platoon Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and radio
Squad 2ic, dismounts, armed with AG3 with HK79
Machine Gunner, dismounts, armed with MG3
Assistant MG, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for MG3

Track 2
Platoon 2ic/Track Commander, does not dismount, armed with MP5
Gunner, mans the turret
Driver, armed with MP5
Squad Leader, dismounts, armed with MP5
RCL-Gunner, dismounts, armed with Carl Gustav M2 recoilless rifle
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
Squad 2ic, dismounts, armed with AG3 with HK79
Machine Gunner, dismounts, armed with MG3
Assistant MG, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for MG3
Sharpshooter, dismounts, armed with AG3 with scope

Track 3
Squad Leader/Track Commander, dismounts, armed with MP5
Gunner, mans the turret
Driver, armed with MP5
Reserve Track Commander, takes over when the Squad Leader dismounts, armed with MP5
RCL-Gunner, dismounts, armed with Carl Gustav M2 recoilless rifle
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
Squad 2ic, dismounts, armed with AG3 with HK79
Machine Gunner, dismounts, armed with MG3
Assistant MG, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for MG3
Sharpshooter, dismounts, armed with AG3 with scope

Track 4
Squad Leader/Track Commander, dismounts, armed with MP5
Gunner, mans the turret
Driver, armed with MP5
Reserve Track Commander, takes over when the Squad Leader dismounts, armed with MP5
RCL-Gunner, dismounts, armed with Carl Gustav M2 recoilless rifle
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
Squad 2ic, dismounts, armed with AG3 with HK79
Machine Gunner, dismounts, armed with MG3
Assistant MG, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for MG3
Medic, dismounts, armed with AG3

Prior to the adoption of the HK79 in the late 80s, rifle grenades were used.

Type 78 Motorized Infantry Platoon
A 78-KOP infantry platoon comprised the command element, three rifle squads, one recoilless rifle squad armed with Carl Gustav M2s, and one machine gun squad armed with MG3s on a tripods. A Type 78 Motorized Infantry squad would not have organic 84mm recoilless rifles; they'd have M72s only. Their most common transport would be the Bv-202. Type 78 battalions often had self-propelled mortars attached: I don't know exactly how the attachable support elements are supposed to work but it strikes me there's an opportunity here to let Type 78s get access to M125/M106 support options.

Type 90 MANPADS SAM Team
The NM198 is not a very impressive upgrade over the M113. The NM198 is built to allow the RBS-70 launcher to be set up on the roof when stopped. That's all. I don't know this game exactly but I can't imagine it's worth 10 points.

Mechanized Recon Patrol
Each KOP-78 recon platoon had two M113s. so there's no reason a Type 78 Battlegroup shouldn't have access to this. For a very short period in 1987-1988 mechanized recon operated NM142s.

Hi Eukie

Thanks for this Norwegian info. Looks like I'll be doing a substantial edit on the list!

Richard

Eukie wrote:SPELLING MISTAKES
A general note here: A lot of times you seem to use a vehicle's role as its name. I think this is overly awkward but even if I accept this as a stylistic choice, it should be applied consistently. E.g. the NM116 Panserjager should coexist with the M48A2 Stridsvogn, not the M48A2.

M106 Bomekasterpanservogen: M106 Bomberkasterpanservogn. Consider "M106 TBK".
M113A1 Panzervogen: M113A1 Panservogn. More properly, either "M113 Pansret Personellkjøretøy" or "M113A1 Transport-Panservogn".
M125 Bomekasterpanservogen: M125 Bombekasterpanservogn. Consider "M125 BK".
NM135 Stormpanservogen: NM135 Stormpanservogn.
NM195 Luftvenpanservogen: NM195 Luftvernpanservogn.
NM196 Ambulance: This should either be the NM196 Hjelpeplasspanservogn or the NM200 Ambulansepanservogn.
NM198 Kommandopanservogen: NM198 Kommandopanservogn.
M109N: Should be M109G.

All this has now been fixed.

NM 189 Ingeniorpanservogn: NM189 Ingeniørpanservogn. You can't drop the line through the o, it's important, like the umlauts in German.

Couldn't actually find this in my list. I must be blind....

UNITS THAT ARE WRONG
Leopard 1A1NO: The Leopard 1A1NO was made from ex-German Leopard 1A1A2s as part of a CFE cascade, and arrived in August 1991. I'm not entirely sure what your timeframe is for this game but the 1A1NO is a very late arrival. Also, the gun is an L7A3, not L7A1.
Greyhound Armoured Car: Are you sure about this? To the best of my knowledge the Greyhound left Norwegian service before the mid-70s.
M48A2: The M48A2, Norwegian or not, does not have a 105 mm gun. It has a 90 mm gun, as is standard on M48s.

Starting to work on this. Looking into why I designated the Leopard 1s as I did (It was a while ago...) Have fixed the M48A2. My bad. Re the Greyhound - I had read somewhere that they were still in service with the Homeguard in the 80's. This could be completely wrong of course (there was even a photo...) I've now made it Unique - but am happy to cut it if you think it's simply not on.

Lastly re: the M24 Chaffee I wasn't aware they were in service with the Homeguard and had thought they had all been upgraded. I'll have to work out how to fit it in the list. I might do what I did with the Danish list and have a separate Homeguard Infantry platoon in the list with this as an option.

Will get back into it on Monday

Richard

Hi Richard,

Question about tandem warheads. The rules state that it ignores composite armour and ERA. I thought tandem charges were designed do defeat ERA only? The addition of a small initial explosive charge shouldnt really effect the main HEAT charge's penetration vs composite armour should it?

Hi mate

Thanks for the question. I'm sure I had a reason for for what I wrote originally but so much time has gone past I really can't remember! So I've had a quick look around and I'm happy to just have Tandem warheads more capable against Reactive Armour rather than Advanced Armour.

Thanks again

Richard

When can I expect to see the US & USMC DATA cards? Thanks.

Is this ruleset still being developed? Definitely considering getting into it with my play group.