Feedback/Comments/Questions on Polish Lists - updated with Polish Airborne Brigade

Hi lads

This thread is to discuss and provide feedback on the Polish lists that will start appearing here and on the main thread from today onwards.  First up is the Polish Motorised Rifle Division Battlegroup list

Polish Motorised Rifle Division Battlegroup 1.1
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BP1s2W01vmcsCjcTHDQ3ErQ_QhJ5qaEk

Once again the speed by which this list appeared and most of the heavy lifting is all down to Paul Cziganj whose immense help has meant you are getting this now, not 3 years from now when I could have gotten around to it by myself!  So thanks again Paul.

So let me know what you think and please point out any errors or omissions and I'll get the fixed.

Next list up will be the Polish Tank Division list.

Thanks

Richard

Hi Rich

First, nice work

Second, why have you given the Poles the 'Fireteam' special rule?
I thought they were trained the same as the other WarPac forces.

Paul

Hi Paul

Thanks

Gun-Pit Paul wrote:Second, why have you given the Poles the 'Fireteam' special rule? I thought they were trained the same as the other WarPac forces.

Fair question and to be honest I'm not 100% wedded to it. But basically I thought, and discussed with Paul, the idea of making the Poles slightly different to the Soviets and other WARPAC forces. I didn't want them to be just a slightly different shaped cookie cutter like some other WARPAC forces. I've read about the professionalism of the Polish officer corps, their desire to show how much better at soldiering they were than the Russians and they didn't really want to be told how to do things by the Soviets.

I wanted to make them fight in a more Western way - hence using order like NATO does, no Battle Drill and so I thought why not give them Fireteam as well.

Obviously I'm happy to be persuaded to change my mind.

Richard

So here is the Polish Armoured list

Polish Armoured Division Battlegroup List 1.1
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RpSrlOZ52TuzxuiccsHOTs6-jf3_CvGr

As always, please let me know what you think - good or bad...

Thanks

Richard

Both lists have now been updated.

Thanks

Richard

The Polish lists keep coming.  

Here is our Polish Naval Landing Brigade allowing you to field units from the 7th Luzycka Naval Landing Brigade.  Great for a Danish campaign.

Polish Naval Landing Brigade Battlegroup
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1B5wJcRKT6tnEDuyMrbRoby0dg6BYcI-0

Peease let us know what you think

Richard

Here's the latest and last Polish list

Polish 6th Pomeranian Airborne Brigade Battlegroup
https://drive.google.com/open?id=19IAbe_GPLGrBViRXkiMMhYyl3PVoPQ_e

As always, please have a look and let me know what you think - looking for any errors or missing items. The main thread has had all the Polish lists added now.

Thanks

Richard

Polish T-55s
T-55L: "T-55L" is the name given by western observers to a number of Polish T-55s which were all manufactured by the Bumar-Łabędy tank plant. It's not a Polish designation. A more appropriate name would be "T-55M", which was the designation used for the unified T-55A and T-55s-upgraded-to-55A-standard. There's also the T-55U, which is the name of T-54AMs upgraded to T-55A standard.

T-55AM Merida: The Merida had a laser warning receiver. Additionally, calling it the Polish version of the Soviet T-55AM is perhaps not the best way to put it. Each WaPa nation that could afford it pursued their own project to upgrade the T-55A for the 80s. The Merida is in this sense not a derivative of the Soviet T-55AM: rather, the Soviet T-55AM and the Polish T-55AM are two branches of the same tree.

Polish T-72s
T-72M: Two tanks, possibly three depending on how you count, have carried the name "T-72M" in Polish service:
> Object 172M-E2, a copy of the Soviet T-72 Ural-1. It was licensed in 1978, a year before the T-72A entered Soviet service. It's a standard post-1976 hull with a standard turret, fitted with the TPD-1K sight complex with laser rangefinder and ballistic computer. It's really not downgraded in any way!
> Object 172M-1-E3, a mix of Soviet T-72 Ural-1 and T-72A technologies: in essence, the T-72A's internals stuffed into an Object 172M-E2 hull and turret.  The main gun ammo capacity is increased from 39 to 44, the gill skirts are replaced with conventional rubber skirts, it received smoke grenade launchers, and the TPN-1-49 night vision gunner's optics are upgraded to the TPN-1-49-23 version. It entered production in 1985. It was only produced for a short period and Poland didn't have all that many of this version: most of the ones they built ended up on the export market.
> Object 172M-1-E3 with applique: As Bumar-Łabędy was retooling to produce the T-72M1, they were still producing 172M-1-E3s, and one feature from the T-72M1 that ended up on some T-72Ms produced was the 16mm HHS glacis applique. I'm unsure if Poland kept any of these for themselves, though. Since they don't have a different designation in Polish service, researching them is rather difficult...

T-72M1: While "increased frontal armour" is technically true, the most important part of the T-72M1 is that it received the T-72A's turret with ceramic inserts.

T-72 "Wilk": Sadly, the Wilk was still in the prototype stage when the communist government fell. None were issued to troops.

Hi Eukie

Thanks again for this interesting information. I'll attempt to make these changes in my next edit - although once again the T-72 stuff is quite confusing!

Richard

Hi Richard

just been looking through and cant seem to find any data for the polish tanks/vehicles, am i missing something or have they not been done yet?

cheers

Nath

Hi Nath

Not done yet. I aim to have them done shortly

Richard

ah ok cheers Richard looking forward to it

Here is the Polish AFV Data Table

Polish AFV Data Table

Please let me know if you have any questions or find any errors etc

Thanks

Richard

Hi Richard, thanks for the Polish Data, been looking forward to a Polish army ever since the army lists came out!

Just a quick question however. From what I understand of the Polish tank capabilities; which admittedly, i'm no expert in. I did notice that the T72m1 tank is a higher armour than the Russian T72a, which it was supposedly only comparable to in terms of armour. This coupled with the T72m1's advanced front armour rule makes is significantly better and yet the same points as a Russian T72a. In addition the T72m is on par with the Russian T72a which I would suggest it shouldn't be as the 'M' model was an inferior export model, outfitted with worse (thinner) armour.

Just wondered if perhaps i had missed out some information that might explain it, one history nut to another, ha!

sorry if this feels like i'm jumping you so soon after the data got released, I have so much respect for all the work you have done with NORTHAG and have thoroughly enjoyed playing it in our group.

Regards,
Dave.

Hi Dave

Thanks for such a quick response. It's inevitable with all the different marks of T-72s and how confusing I find them all, that I've gotten a few things wrong! That's why I'm always happy to get feedback.

I'll construct a T-72 comparison spreadsheet and may adjust the stats from there.

Let me know if you spot anything else - and I appreciate your comments very much. Please note this all now formally has got nothing to do with NORTHAG and is strictly my own unofficial BG variant.

Thanks

Richard

Oh yea you are telling me. I have trouble visually IDing most russian mbt. All so similar looking from the front and so many different letters denoting different things ha.

Ah of course, I refered to northag out of habit sorry!

Sorry if this feels like I'm going a bit 'post spammy' but I just noticed and checked that apparently the polish t72m1 did have slightly better armour than the standard, learning from events in Israel in 1982. They added applique armour on t72m1's upper hull and placed ceramic bars in the turret armour cavity. However these upgrades were not as extensive as those that made the t72b super dolly parton.

So if I could suggest the t72m1 armour remained 19 but lost it's advanced armour as it is inbetween the armour of T72a And T72b. The loss of advanced armour being because although ceramic bars were indeed added to it, it wasn't a full 'advanced package' for dealing with all manner of ammunitions, as was the case with T72b. The t72m1 improvement being held in its raised armour stat of 19.

Sorry if this has felt like a ramble. Just been bugging me ha.

Hi Dave

All good - thanks for your "ramble" it was actually helpful. I've made my little comparison spreadsheet and here are my suggested changes:

Polish T-72 "Wilk" - reduce Front Armour to 20
Polish and East German T-72M1 - reduce Front Armour to 18. Remove "Advanced Armour". In the case of the Polish T-72M1 change "II" to IRS/WLS. This still makes them slightly better than the Soviet T-72A for the same points cost... Maybe reduce the Soviet T-72A to 55 pts???

Soviet T-72AV - change Side Armour to 8

How does all that sound?

Richard

New stats for T-72's



Hope this works!


Richard

Yea that looks good, the alternate night fighting should help get the improved electronics in the t72m1 across. Seems good changes over all and the points change for the t72a sounds about right.

Thanks for responding so fast, our group will try the changes out when my models are all ready to go woo!

Hi Dave

So do you think the Polish and East German T-72M1 should have "II" for night fighting rather than "IRS/WLS"?

Richard

It's difficult to find solid info on it. However I have found that the electronics were improved on from the standard t72m export model specifically.
Seems they upgraded to using czech electronics. So potentially give it the better night visions as a representation of it?