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Whoa mohamed
Posts : 27
Join date : 2018-02-13

Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:38 pm
Id like to work in a Sead option for the Air assault missions.
Perhaps using the SAM rules in reverse with some modifications.
With your permission Richard ill post it here in the next 48 hours.
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RichardC
Posts : 203
Join date : 2018-02-12
Location : Sydney, Australia
https://coldwarhot.blogspot.com.au/

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:44 pm
Please do!

Richard
Whoa mohamed
Posts : 27
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:22 pm
Thanks Richard
ianrs54
Posts : 1
Join date : 2018-02-14

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:59 am
That's a bit high level for these rules I suspect. BTW the current rules for air strikes look about right.

IanS
Whoa mohamed
Posts : 27
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:01 pm
Noted but with out Sead your air strikes won't. Look about right for long.
Whoa mohamed
Posts : 27
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:13 am
I do wish to explain my desire for this option.
Sam rules
Sams. In the army lists.
My desire to run both Nato and warpac air assault lists.
If I lose a aircraft i have to draw two chits its only fair that I have the means to mitigate the ads.
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RichardC
Posts : 203
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Location : Sydney, Australia
https://coldwarhot.blogspot.com.au/

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:57 am
Hi Whoa mohamed

Like you I thought about this a lot when I was trying to work out how to deal with aircraft, helo, SAMs and ADA. I love the idea of having a F-4G rolling over a hilltop and loosing a HARM into a radar vehicle before they know what's happening so I originally had included Anti-Radiation Missiles in my Air-to-Ground section. I still plan on getting and making an F-4G Wild Weasel.

In the end I got rid of the ARM rules for a bunch of reasons.

Firstly there are loads of other vehicle options for killing SAM/ADA vehicles available to aircraft and helos without having to add in a whole lot of additional rules.

Second - any rules, I could think of, would have a tough time replicating some of the action implicit in a SEAD attack - turning off the radar etc.

Third, weapons systems most likely to be attacked by a SEAD mission do not represent well on a standard table-top. Normally in games we see lower level SAM/ADA systems, say for the Soviets it might be SA-7 or 14, ZSU-23-4, SA-9, SA-13, SA-8, Tunguska type weapons systems. Before an air strike or air assault ground units or attack helos could be asked to target those units with direct fire to eliminate them. I imagine (I'm no expert) that higher level SAM assets (your SA-6, SA-10, SA-11 etc) would be further back so they covered the FEBA or more strategic assets. These would more likely be attacked by SEAD missions as there are no ground assets to take them out and is too dangerous of attack helos to go that fair behind enemy lines.

If you want to replicate these higher level SAM assets in a game, we have to represent all the other vehicles and equipment that goes along with them. In some scales such as 20mm, these can be very hard to find, very expensive and pretty hard to make. That means you can only really play in the smaller scales which is cool - but even in 6mm do you really want to replicate a proper SA-6 position. I don't know.

Finally, at the level of what your standard Battlegroup game is you could just about mount an argument for having almost no aircraft at all - certainly the FEBA would be a deadly place for all aircraft and most would want to punch through it as fast and low as possible and either get on with their mission or get home. Loitering around to nail a particular vehicle or SAM site might be considered unwise while a battle is taking place. Obviously I'm pro having aircraft in the game - or else we wouldn't be having this discussion! Very Happy

So those are the reasons I decided not to push the whole SEAD component in the game thus fair. I'm really looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Richard
Whoa mohamed
Posts : 27
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:52 am
I have the data for the primary tactical aircraft and missiles. Where I am torn is what form to engineer sead. One of the forms is a adaptation of your cap table. Another is actual air craft on the table. Literally the two aircraft most likely to appear besides attack helicopters would be the F16 C/J (which mostly supplanted the F4G Phantom 2 in most Nato Airforces by the 80's tho prevalent in the recon role) and the SU24M with it's snowstorm and blizzard targeting and jamming pod. I intend to run a air assault list which would likely face tactical intergrated air defense systems like the ZSU ,vulcan and SAM's in the feba.
dead1
Posts : 64
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:58 am
SEAD could be represented off board as part of an extended EW option that includes impact of jammers, drones filled with chaff (as used in 1991 Gulf War)and other tactics designed to confuse or neutralize enemy radar systems.

This could be like a counter battery option in normal BG.
sediment
Posts : 94
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Location : Chester, U.K.
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Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:31 pm
Could SEAD missions be more abstracted and paid for as an option for heliborne troops as a special rule? Something like SEAD mission to suppress air defences, cost 30 points, roll 1 d6 and 3+ suppresses all on table enemy air defences for 1 full turn. It's an abstraction, but it would give a window to allow the helos to do their job, albeit with a risk that the mission wouldn't be successful and the situation becomes SNAFU.

Can't remember where, but I read recently that Iraqi air defences closed their radar down if they heard Coalition pilots use the radio call sign "Magnum", which I read indicated a HARM missile deployed, so you could perhaps allow any ground attack aircraft to do the same on a 6 on a d6, provided they whisper the word Magnum as they roll the dice.

Just a thought.

Cheers, Andy
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Piers
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Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:07 pm
I think things like this, will be one off bought special attacks like air strikes, that are bought and may, or may not, bring about an effect, generally negating another on board option... 

It will be an abstraction, perhaps reducing on board asset accuracy or performance in some manner, or negating off table SAMs as I see those also being part of  lists...
Whoa mohamed
Posts : 27
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:59 pm
Have you got far enough along for me to abort my efforts?
Whoa mohamed
Posts : 27
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:01 pm
Andy
I was thinking in a similar fashion but thought of limiting the effects to SMS on overwatch.
sediment
Posts : 94
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Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:19 pm
Yes, the effect should be restricted to radar-controlled assets that are actively searching, so restricted to units on ambush fire. Anything using the eyeball Mk1 to hose the sky with lead or more sophisticated missile systems like MANPADS that use laser, infra-red or heat seeking capabilities shouldn't be affected.

Cheers, Andy
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RichardC
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Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:41 pm
I like Andy's idea.

Richard
Whoa mohamed
Posts : 27
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:28 pm
D-6 roll
1-2 Counter measures effective missile decoyed off board no effect.
3-4 Duel in the sun resolve missile or radar controlled gun fire first then remove ADA asset counts as destroyed owning player takes one chit.
If aircraft shot down its owner takes 2 chits.
5-6 ADA asset destroyed owning player takes a chit.
Wild weasel mission could be added to case but should be allowed to be bought. As a timed event so it could be used to support the air assault.
May only be used against ADA given a overwatch order.
Move model from friendly board edge to radiating target and conduct attack.
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Re: Wild weasel SEAD mission option to CAS mission.

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