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RichardC
Posts : 216
Join date : 2018-02-12
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https://coldwarhot.blogspot.com.au/

Feedback/Comments/Questions on Norwegian List

on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:20 am
I've added this as a better spot to discuss the Norwegian List - I'll make some comments in the next day or two when I have more time.

Richard


Last edited by RichardC on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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RichardC
Posts : 216
Join date : 2018-02-12
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on Norwegian List

on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:27 am
Eukie wrote:Was informed of the existence of this by someone I know, had a glance, saw to my joy there were playable Norwegians, and read through the AFV list. I soon realized you'd used Fire & Fury as a base. F&F isn't all that accurate, so here's a list of corrections and suggestions that came to mind while reading through the Norwegian documents:

SPELLING MISTAKES
A general note here: A lot of times you seem to use a vehicle's role as its name. I think this is overly awkward but even if I accept this as a stylistic choice, it should be applied consistently. E.g. the NM116 Panserjager should coexist with the M48A2 Stridsvogn, not the M48A2.

M106 Bomekasterpanservogen: M106 Bomberkasterpanservogn. Consider "M106 TBK".
M113A1 Panzervogen: M113A1 Panservogn. More properly, either "M113 Pansret Personellkjøretøy" or "M113A1 Transport-Panservogn".
M125 Bomekasterpanservogen: M125 Bombekasterpanservogn. Consider "M125 BK".
NM135 Stormpanservogen: NM135 Stormpanservogn.
NM195 Luftvenpanservogen: NM195 Luftvernpanservogn.
NM196 Ambulance: This should either be the NM196 Hjelpeplasspanservogn or the NM200 Ambulansepanservogn.
NM198 Kommandopanservogen: NM198 Kommandopanservogn.
M109N: Should be M109G.
NM 189 Ingeniorpanservogn: NM189 Ingeniørpanservogn. You can't drop the line through the o, it's important, like the umlauts in German.

UNITS THAT ARE WRONG
Leopard 1A1NO: The Leopard 1A1NO was made from ex-German Leopard 1A1A2s as part of a CFE cascade, and arrived in August 1991. I'm not entirely sure what your timeframe is for this game but the 1A1NO is a very late arrival. Also, the gun is an L7A3, not L7A1.
Greyhound Armoured Car: Are you sure about this? To the best of my knowledge the Greyhound left Norwegian service before the mid-70s.
M48A2: The M48A2, Norwegian or not, does not have a 105 mm gun. It has a 90 mm gun, as is standard on M48s.

UNITS THAT SEEM TO BE MISSING
Leopard 1NO: Norway bought a 78 Leopard 1s in 1968. These arrived in 1970-1971.
Leopard 1A5NO: Norway modernized their Leopard 1NOs in the late 80s with the EMES-18 system, gun stabilization, and APFSDS.
M109A3GN: Norwegian version of the West German M109A3G from the late 80s.
M24 Chaffee: A joke at this point, but 24 were in use with the Home Guard until they were scrapped in 1993 for CFE compliance.
M577: Norway had several of these. I'm not entirely sure on the introduction of the NM198, but the M557 is probably the more appropriate vehicle.
Weasel: These were in service with the Home Guard to carry the M40 recoilless rifle until 1984.
Bv-202 with ENTAC: According to a painting in a Norwegian mess hall, these left service as late as 1990. They'd been mostly phased out and replaced by the TOW system, though.

BATTLEGROUPS
First a note: Norway had been a producer of the improved M72A3 since the 70s, so we wouldn't be using M72A2s, which as far as I can tell were never even in service. We might even have also used the M72A4, known as the M72F1 in Norwegian service, though I've been unable to confirm the service date on the M72A4. You seem to have made the 84mm Carl Gustav M2 present in every Norwegian squad, with M72s being optional. It's really quite the opposite: the M72 was issued almost one to a man, while the Carl Gustav was usually a platoon-level asset.

The Type 90 Brigade is presented as being fully mechanized. This is not the case. A Type 90 brigade comprised one armoured battalion with one mechanized company and two infantry battalions in Bv-202s.

Type 90 Mechanized Infantry Platoon
A 90-KOP mechanized infantry platoon would (almost) never be armed with regular M113s. By the time the KOP-90 reforms roll out, the mechanized infantry's M113s have all been converted to NM135s. The only exception that comes to mind are the M113s stationed in Lebanon as part of UNFIL. A mechanized infantry platoon would not have Bv-202s, because then it would not be mechanized, it would be motorized: it seems the Type 90 Motorized Infantry Platoon is missing, too.

The organization of a Type 90 Mechanized Infantry Platoon for 1993 (probably applicable to the latter half of the 80s) is as follows:

Track 1
Platoon Commander/Track Commander, dismounts, armed with MP5
Gunner, mans the turret
Driver, armed with MP5
Reserve Track Commander, takes over when the Platoon Commander dismounts, armed with MP5
Squad Leader, dismounts, armed with MP5
RCL-Gunner, dismounts, armed with Carl Gustav M2 recoilless rifle
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
Platoon Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and radio
Squad 2ic, dismounts, armed with AG3 with HK79
Machine Gunner, dismounts, armed with MG3
Assistant MG, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for MG3

Track 2
Platoon 2ic/Track Commander, does not dismount, armed with MP5
Gunner, mans the turret
Driver, armed with MP5
Squad Leader, dismounts, armed with MP5
RCL-Gunner, dismounts, armed with Carl Gustav M2 recoilless rifle
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
Squad 2ic, dismounts, armed with AG3 with HK79
Machine Gunner, dismounts, armed with MG3
Assistant MG, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for MG3
Sharpshooter, dismounts, armed with AG3 with scope

Track 3
Squad Leader/Track Commander, dismounts, armed with MP5
Gunner, mans the turret
Driver, armed with MP5
Reserve Track Commander, takes over when the Squad Leader dismounts, armed with MP5
RCL-Gunner, dismounts, armed with Carl Gustav M2 recoilless rifle
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
Squad 2ic, dismounts, armed with AG3 with HK79
Machine Gunner, dismounts, armed with MG3
Assistant MG, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for MG3
Sharpshooter, dismounts, armed with AG3 with scope

Track 4
Squad Leader/Track Commander, dismounts, armed with MP5
Gunner, mans the turret
Driver, armed with MP5
Reserve Track Commander, takes over when the Squad Leader dismounts, armed with MP5
RCL-Gunner, dismounts, armed with Carl Gustav M2 recoilless rifle
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
RCL-Assistant, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for CG M2
Squad 2ic, dismounts, armed with AG3 with HK79
Machine Gunner, dismounts, armed with MG3
Assistant MG, dismounts, armed with AG3 and ammo for MG3
Medic, dismounts, armed with AG3

Prior to the adoption of the HK79 in the late 80s, rifle grenades were used.

Type 78 Motorized Infantry Platoon
A 78-KOP infantry platoon comprised the command element, three rifle squads, one recoilless rifle squad armed with Carl Gustav M2s, and one machine gun squad armed with MG3s on a tripods. A Type 78 Motorized Infantry squad would not have organic 84mm recoilless rifles; they'd have M72s only. Their most common transport would be the Bv-202. Type 78 battalions often had self-propelled mortars attached: I don't know exactly how the attachable support elements are supposed to work but it strikes me there's an opportunity here to let Type 78s get access to M125/M106 support options.

Type 90 MANPADS SAM Team
The NM198 is not a very impressive upgrade over the M113. The NM198 is built to allow the RBS-70 launcher to be set up on the roof when stopped. That's all. I don't know this game exactly but I can't imagine it's worth 10 points.

Mechanized Recon Patrol
Each KOP-78 recon platoon had two M113s. so there's no reason a Type 78 Battlegroup shouldn't have access to this. For a very short period in 1987-1988 mechanized recon operated NM142s.
Eukie
Posts : 5
Join date : 2018-11-12

Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on Norwegian List

on Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:56 am
I did some digging into Norwegian M72s and offer the following correction of my earlier statements:

Norway operated two versions of the M72 in the 80s: the "M72", which seems to refer to the M72A1, A2, and A3 versions (I know for a fact it includes the A3 version; the difference between the A2 and A3 is minimal anyway) and the "NM72" which is an upgraded version with increased range and probably increased penetration. It's either the M72A4 or the M72A5, but I haven't found more detailed info yet.
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on Norwegian List

on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:59 am
Such a dope - I created this page especially to answer some questions and then forgot to use it!

RichardC wrote:Eukie wrote:
SPELLING MISTAKES
A general note here: A lot of times you seem to use a vehicle's role as its name. I think this is overly awkward but even if I accept this as a stylistic choice, it should be applied consistently. E.g. the NM116 Panserjager should coexist with the M48A2 Stridsvogn, not the M48A2.

M106 Bomekasterpanservogen: M106 Bomberkasterpanservogn. Consider "M106 TBK".
M113A1 Panzervogen: M113A1 Panservogn. More properly, either "M113 Pansret Personellkjøretøy" or "M113A1 Transport-Panservogn".
M125 Bomekasterpanservogen: M125 Bombekasterpanservogn. Consider "M125 BK".
NM135 Stormpanservogen: NM135 Stormpanservogn.
NM195 Luftvenpanservogen: NM195 Luftvernpanservogn.
NM196 Ambulance: This should either be the NM196 Hjelpeplasspanservogn or the NM200 Ambulansepanservogn.
NM198 Kommandopanservogen: NM198 Kommandopanservogn.
M109N: Should be M109G.

All this has now been fixed.

NM 189 Ingeniorpanservogn: NM189 Ingeniørpanservogn. You can't drop the line through the o, it's important, like the umlauts in German.

Couldn't actually find this in my list. I must be blind....

UNITS THAT ARE WRONG
Leopard 1A1NO: The Leopard 1A1NO was made from ex-German Leopard 1A1A2s as part of a CFE cascade, and arrived in August 1991. I'm not entirely sure what your timeframe is for this game but the 1A1NO is a very late arrival. Also, the gun is an L7A3, not L7A1.
Greyhound Armoured Car: Are you sure about this? To the best of my knowledge the Greyhound left Norwegian service before the mid-70s.
M48A2: The M48A2, Norwegian or not, does not have a 105 mm gun. It has a 90 mm gun, as is standard on M48s.

Starting to work on this. Looking into why I designated the Leopard 1s as I did (It was a while ago...) Have fixed the M48A2. My bad. Re the Greyhound - I had read somewhere that they were still in service with the Homeguard in the 80's. This could be completely wrong of course (there was even a photo...) I've now made it Unique - but am happy to cut it if you think it's simply not on.

Lastly re: the M24 Chaffee I wasn't aware they were in service with the Homeguard and had thought they had all been upgraded. I'll have to work out how to fit it in the list. I might do what I did with the Danish list and have a separate Homeguard Infantry platoon in the list with this as an option.

Will get back into it on Monday

Richard
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RichardC
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on Norwegian List

on Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:03 am
Eukie wrote:I did some digging into Norwegian M72s and offer the following correction of my earlier statements:

Norway operated two versions of the M72 in the 80s: the "M72", which seems to refer to the M72A1, A2, and A3 versions (I know for a fact it includes the A3 version; the difference between the A2 and A3 is minimal anyway) and the "NM72" which is an upgraded version with increased range and probably increased penetration. It's either the M72A4 or the M72A5, but I haven't found more detailed info yet.

What I might do is simply call it the M72 LAW in the list.

Thanks

Richard
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Re: Feedback/Comments/Questions on Norwegian List

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