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Tau1850
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Join date : 2018-06-12

Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:10 am
So Saturday had a game where my friend had 2 transports on reserve move. I called in an Off-table Artillery Support giving g an order to my Senior officer. Then went trough the full process of the artillery strike. When I rolled for the scatter it drifted 11" and landed right on the transports. He then wanted to use his reserve move at that time on the transports. But we could not figure out a solution and due to time constraints just rolled a die and proceed with, they could not use the reserve move until after the guns fired.

I was thinking about it and believe that there are multiple orders going on, so after the spotting order is done then it's the open fire order for the guns, at this time I think the reserve move order can be given and the transports could escape the barrage.
Does this seem like the correct way or would they have to suffer and take the barrage?
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El Cid
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:39 am
Rules say (p.16):
"A unit given the Reserve Move order does not move in its own turn but instead waits, and can then Interrupt the enemy turn (but not an order) to take to Top Speed order, .......

So in reading this passage I think the trucks cannot escape once the order to fire is given.
Tau1850
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:23 pm
Right, bit it they could move right after the spotting order and before the fire order, correct?
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El Cid
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:51 pm
so it is
Tau1850
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:24 pm
Well, crap.....seems my friends have found out a way to out snooker me. Maybe I can force their hands by dropping some 81mm morters to force the reserve move and then hit with the big guns.
Nazrat
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:23 pm
Nope. Warwick has previously said that you CANNOT dodge artillery in this fashion. It would be very unrealistic and really gaming to play that way, I think.
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Wellington
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:36 pm
@Nazrat
Warwick ruling was in a case of beyond the call of Duty, not Reserve Move. As far I know you cannot interupt a shooting sequence, but there is no other limitation. Therefore it should be possible to use a reserve move between the spotter activation and the bombardement. Seems not  so unrealistic for me.
Tau1850
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:00 pm
I agree with Wellington on this, just how it is all worded. So my victory has an asterisk. I would have gone to the FB page and looked this up, BUT....I was blocked...
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Fitz
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:20 pm
I would possibly allow a panic-move to avoid a barrage if there was an initial ranging round, if I was feeling particularly lenient, but not for a timed or pre-registered strike as there would be no prior warning that rounds were incoming.
Tau1850
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:51 pm
Yeah Fitz, it was just for the in between part of spotting order and firing order. I do agree with you on the timed and pre-registered.
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Powermonger
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:58 pm
As per the rules, you can go ahead with it. The wording allows you to do that. But would be against the wishes and spirits of the rules.
The rules just can´t rule every specific case.
In this case I´m totally convinced that Warwick will NOT let you do that (reserve move between the spot and the fire orders)
I´m also convinced that he would not write it specifically in the rules nor in any errata. It is just unnecessary. It is gamey and against the spirit of the rules.
Remember thes set of rules are not intended for tournaments or competitive play.

Hope that helps,

Diego

Tau1850
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:18 pm
I kind of see it like this,
Spotter see enemy and calls in the artillery the spotting round lands close to the enemy, the enemy (unit on reserve move) unit yells " Cheese it, we're boned!!" (Futurama reference) and makes a run for safety. Then the artillery strike the spot they just left.
It doesn't break any rules because the reserve move is taken between the spotting order and the open fire order.
It stays within the the spirit of the game by allowing units that are on "reserve move" to use this order in a chance to save the unit.
In most cases, that I have seen, it is transports and other soft vehicles that are usually given the order. This would give them a little more opportunity to survive.
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Fitz
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:14 am
I think it more likely that troops in softskins or open-topped APCs would want to jump out and run for any cover they could find, rather than stay gamely with the vehicle and hope that the driver can get them out of the beaten zone before they're blown to smithereens.

Maybe a morale roll might be indicated? Or not. It's your game, do what feels right.

There is kind of a precedent in the "Fall Back" rule which might be workable; it gives the targets the opportunity to go to ground to reduce casualties, but leaves them pinned (from memory).
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Powermonger
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:15 pm
As Fitz say, it is your game! You can do as you wish.
I would NOT allow that in my games. First reason would be the one I mentioned earlier (spirit of the rules). If I have a very "lawyer-type" player, my justification would be that the order is a "request artillery fire"  order. And that you cannot use a reserve move until you resolve the "request artillery fire order".
I will then gladly complete the game, and never invite that player to play again.
Tau1850
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:31 pm
Stop with this "spirit of the rules" phrase, it's not quantifiable and a straw man fallacy.

Find out the rule and it's intended use is portant or why else have them. To ignore the rule as written is to no play as the game as designed.

Some people have to be "lawyer types" because they have no option, for example my nephew is autistic and everything is literal and has to go by what is stated and not intended. He just doesn't understand it. By being closed minded and not gaming with someone that has to be literal with the rules of the s very obnoxious.

The rule as written, IS to how it is to be played. This is why I ask a lot of questions to figure out what is correct so so when explained to my nephew he will understand. I am not looking for opinions of people that can not have a healthy understanding of the rules.

Also enough with the "play as you want" statement. It's obnoxious because you're just saying " Your wrong, but I can't come up with anything relevant to argue against what you stayes, therefore, whatever dude."
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Gunbird
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:49 am
Gentlemen, do play nice.

Tau, Spirit of the rules IS rather important in Battlegroup, as is Play as you want. Warwick will not and cannot answer each and every question, and if you can resolve your issue in a manner that suits you and your opponent, then why not? A game is meant to have fun, not to turn into a bitter argument.

Me, personally.....I would not allow it. If you are in a truck, in itself a easily destroyed flammable object, i'd be pretty keen to get out and look for cover. If anything at all, I'd allow the crew to debuss the vehicle and dive into cover, but not drive it at top speed out of the possible area of the explosions. A bit too much Hollywood if you ask me.
Tau1850
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:22 am
"The Spirit of the Rules" is subjective and a straw man argument to distract from the actual discussion.

I am looking for objective answers, that are relevant to my previous question that the post. Not, because of the spirit of the rule. What does that even mean?



As you see it clearly states, in the rules that are clearly verifiable and not subjective. Under the reserve move order it can interrupt a players turn and not an order.
Under the firing for effect it states that the spotter's order is complete. (Insert reserve move now) now orders are given to the guns. It's right there.

If you still want to go by "Spirit of the rule". It seems to me that this is set up in the way to give a unit an opportunity to avoid being killed. A unit of vehicle are moving and a spotter round lands nearby and they deside to punch it to get the vehicle ok of there before the oncoming rounds land and kill them.

Unless there is something I am missing in the main rule book, this is the most likely scenario and the case. My point is clear and I will no longer post, but i will continue to read others post. I have enjoyed the topic and discussion thank you. Always remember that an opinion should never be lock up, it should always be evaluated from time to time to make sure it's still relevant.
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Warwick
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:43 am
Technically, yes, you can do it. There are two (or more) orders in there and you could reserve move between them, but it is one sequence of orders which shouldn't be interrupted (by ambush for either). So I'd say no, in this specific case. Waiting on reserve move to dodge incoming arty fire is not the intention of the rule and feels a bit too gamey to me. It wouldn't be allowed in our games. Obviously, players can play it anyway they feel works for them, as with all rules, and house rules, agreements etc are fine. But this is an unintentional loophole, exploiting such a thing is covered by part i. of gaming principles. But if both sides are happy, crack-on. I'd be concerned that the practice would spread and rtaher than a one-off oddity, reserve move dodging would become the norm, meaning artillery can't hit anything as everything scatters each time a spotter round lands. As a one-off its explainable, but as games mechanic it doesn't work.

Official, if we errata it, I'd say no. Don;t interrupt the artillery orders sequence. Hope that helps... if not much.
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Piers
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:12 am
As Warwick says it's up to you.  

As my group rarely use Reserve Move, I'm happy to allow a reserve move between the spotter and the guns firing turns. I personally can't see it spreading as a means of avoiding artillery fire unless a player puts his entire force on Reserve Move every turn...

To me it just represents the troops moving after the ranging rounds come in and perhaps in my narrative they managed to get out of the way before the main salvo came in after a slight delay. I don't see artillery fire in Battlegroup to be an instant thing... so moving out of the way isn't against the spirit of the game to me as it fits my narrative of the game. In my narrative these are troops primed to move in response to something... so if I was in an APC and rounds started ranging in... I'd move the vehicle... it matters less with troops on foot as they won't avoid it so easily.

It's up to you and your group how you wish to play it.

It's never happened in one of our games yet, but honestly, I'd let a unit reserve move away after the spotter round sequence.

As I say... it's never happened to worry about yet, but I can see a narrative way for it and I don't particularly think it's against the spirit of the game either or will lead to mass abuse. But that's just my view.

So use the rules the way you want.

But for me, I see the reserve move happening between the Spotters action and the gun firing action as both within the rules and within the spirit of the game and also within the historical narrative...

"Panzergrenadiers in a 251, waiting ready, see a couple of ranging rounds land... they decide to move their vehicle just before a salvo lands..."
Wingfield-Haze
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:22 pm
Hmmm its a loophole because no other order (spotter order) demands that it should be preceded by another specific order (open fire order) with the guns. Its supposed to be a sequence giving the firing player the option to call off a poor spotting round. If the firing player has to abide by the sequence I think the receiving player should suck it up. It costs enough orders to achieve already! Furthermore, would the firer have to call in the guns, because to all intents and purposes an order is a declaration of intent? If the target sods off why would you waste orders?
Tau1850
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:17 pm
Ok, so what you guys are saying is the legitimate order is the Calling Artillery Fire. The other orders listed are just for the sequence of events that has an additional cost of available orders.
In which cause it could not be interrupted. Huh....did think of it like that. THANKS!!!
typhoon2
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:25 am
I'm abivalent about whether the tactic should be allowed, seeing both sides' points of view. I woud suggest, however, that a couple of details be considered. A US Time on Target fire mission, by its very nature, should not permit any Reaction movement until the fire mission is complete. The US worked hard to perfect the tactic and the player pays extra for it so deserves the benefit. Secondly, as alluded to above, if the target vacates the area (flushed out deliberately?) then the Spotter should be allowed to cancel the fire mission and expend no artillery Orders.
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wolflord
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:22 pm
Unless your army has the "Rounds on the way" rule you can allready cancel a fire mission, without expending any order dice for the guns.
Tau1850
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:38 am
After a long time of thinking and reading post, chatting with people on other sites and FB, but not the BG FB because I was band from it, I was wrong on this issue. The initial order is the Request Artillery order, everything else is just a subtext to explain the process of initial order. Since the reserve move can not activate during an order, it can not be used to move between the spotting orde and the guns Open Fire order as it's All the same order. So just from straight rules play Warwick is right. But I like the amended way better.
Ilkahn
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

on Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:55 pm
i would personally have no issue with this but i'd limit the distance allowed for the panic run. The intent would be to escape the arty main beaten zone. So a single move would be fair to all concerned before the actual beaten zone is decided. This way it more reflects realism that you may attempt to run away from it yet instead put yourself directly into it. Sometimes, sitting still is the best thing to do.
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Re: Calling in Artillery vs Reserve Move Order

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