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RichardC
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Help with Belgian List

on Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:17 am
Hi guys - it's been a wee bit quiet here so I thought I'd ask some questions about the Belgian Army and see what you can come up with for me! I'm working on the Belgian list right now before going onto the Polish lists that thanks to Paul are already nearly done.

So I'll add questions as they come along - but here are my first ones - in a completely random order:

1. Did the Belgians have any MANPADS SAM systems? All I've found reference to in the SAM department are Nike/Hercules and iHAWK. No mention of Redeye etc. If you have a reference what did did that MANPADS appear in service.
2. Did they use the Leopard AVLB? Again all I can find reference to is the M48 AVLB.
3. Any info bridging equipment
4. Any info on softskins - particularly primary medium and heavy trucks, wreckers and ambulances - that sort of stuff
5. Did the Belgians use the M577 at all?
6. What about Ground Surveillance Radar. Any other than those used with the Spartan?

That's all for now.

Thanks

Richard
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Kirill_GV001
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:25 am
Hi Richard,

I've talked a little to acquaintances who served in the Belgian army, and have some answers to your questions :

-As far as I know, no MANPADS for the Belgians. Due to their love for British kit, I thought at first they'd have some Blowpipes lying around, but actually, they hadn't any. They only bought French Mistrals in 1989, so it's out of the timeframe.
-Their standard softskin vehicles would be Unimog trucks, but no way to know what exact model.
-No M577 for the Belgians.

I sadly can't answer the other questions, but I hope I can help at least a little.
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RichardC
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:31 am
Thanks Paul

- MANPADS - that confirms what I understood - thanks for that
- Re Unimogs - That's what I've included so far, but I assume there were other "bigger" trucks as well!
- Thanks - again I didn't think there were any M577s but wanted to be sure.

Appreciate that solid start - now I just need some answers on the rest.

Thanks again

Richard
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Kirill_GV001
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:38 am
Hi Richard,

I've been digging up more data about the Belgians.

1) Bridging equipment ; I've actually found four options for the Belgians :
-Leopard bridgelayer
-M48 bridgelayer, M75 amphibious pontoon bearers, light pontoons on inflatable rafts : http://www.abbl.be/category/pont-brug/
2) Softskins ; apart from the aforementioned Unimog, they'd use VW Iltis light vehicles and the Para Commando regiment would use the AS-24 Trike.
-Heavier options : maybe some old as hell Bedford trucks, otherwise they fielded these MAN trucksuntil 2003.
3) Ground surveillance systems : There's this M113 based ground radar. I have no data regarding the date it was introduced, but since it was recently replaced by manpack and Pandur APC-mounted options, I can see it being already present in the late 80s.
4) Ambulances : as far as I understood, apart from dedicated AS24, Iltis and Unimog variants, the Belgians would field the FV104 Samaritan.
5) Engineering vehicles : Leopard 1-based Bergepanzer 2.

And that's all I found recently, if needed, I can check out more things.
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RichardC
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:47 am
Hi Paul

1. Re the Leopard AVLB - I have a feeling it might have come into service past the Cold War period we are looking at.  I just found an article that has the Belgians having 334 Leopard 1BE MBTs, 10 Leopard training tanks, 36 Bergepanzer 2s, 6 Pioneerpanzers and 55 Gepards.  No mention of the AVLB as a variant used by them.
2. I'm trtying to find out when the Ilitis came into service.  No joy as yet.  I also discovered some stuff about the MAN 360 and another truck called the FN 62C
3.  Yes - I wonder when that was introduced...
4. Cool - will add those options
5.  Yupe - got both of those.

Thanks mate

R
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RichardC
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:47 am
Here's another question

Did Belgian Officers and/or NCOs have an SMG option? If so - what was it?

Thanks

Richard
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Kirill_GV001
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:55 am
Hi Richard!

1) I did a quick search regarding the Leopard bridgelayer, I can't find any precise info, but the Belgian army bought a lot of Bundeswehr surplus for dirt cheap in the early 90s when the threat of a large scale conflict disappeared ; they may well have been bought at this point. Since we can't really pinpoint the date of introduction, but that it's likely that it was added in the 90s, I think it'd be better to leave it out of the list.
2) The Iltis were ordered by the Belgian army in 1984, and the batches were all delivered between 1984 and late 1985 ; I think we're good to go with this option.
3) I can't find any more data about it, wouldn't it be still covered by some kind of secrecy? Or is it just because ground radars aren't as "sexy" as tanks and jets and are thus less documented?

And regarding the Belgian NCO's and officer's SMG option, they would use the Vigneron M2, a classic steel-tube 9mm SMG.
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Henk
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:15 am
Hi,
Here are the answers from Carl, my brother in law. He also did some research. Hope this helps and corroborates other answers.

1 no MANPADS SAM in the Belgian army of the time. Armoured units had 02 Hispano Suiza HSS804 AA guns in support

2 both the Bergepanzer and the Pionierpanzer Leopard were in use

3 bridging equipment included mobile floating armoured bridges (MOFAB) German built Faltschwimmbrücke, Uniflot pontoon bridges and good old Bailey bridges

4 softskins included : jeeps Minerva, Landrover 4x2, Bombardier Iltis (late 80’s),
Trucks UNIMOG types ABB, ABX5, MAN I 6T, MAN II 136 4T

5 no M577 tank and recce units used the CVRT Sultan, other units used a M113 command version

6 Belgian SCB 2130 radar system

Henk
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RichardC
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:12 am
Hi Paul

1) I did a quick search regarding the Leopard bridgelayer, I can't find any precise info, but the Belgian army bought a lot of Bundeswehr surplus for dirt cheap in the early 90s when the threat of a large scale conflict disappeared ; they may well have been bought at this point. Since we can't really pinpoint the date of introduction, but that it's likely that it was added in the 90s, I think it'd be better to leave it out of the list.

Agreed. It's out of the list

2) The Iltis were ordered by the Belgian army in 1984, and the batches were all delivered between 1984 and late 1985 ; I think we're good to go with this option.

Cool. It's in the list!

3) I can't find any more data about it, wouldn't it be still covered by some kind of secrecy? Or is it just because ground radars aren't as "sexy" as tanks and jets and are thus less documented?

Yeah - still not sure what to do about that one...

And regarding the Belgian NCO's and officer's SMG option, they would use the Vigneron M2, a classic steel-tube 9mm SMG.

Great thanks. Of course once you said that I found it in one of my sources as well - I should have paid more attention!

Thanks as always Paul

Richard
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RichardC
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:33 am
Hi Henk - thanks for your reply and please thank your brother-in-law for me!

1 no MANPADS SAM in the Belgian army of the time. Armoured units had 02 Hispano Suiza HSS804 AA guns in support

Thanks - I think that totally settles it regarding the SAM issue. Interesting re the Hispano 20mm gun. I have two sources that mention the West German Rh202 and one of those also mentions Belgium as using the Quad .50 cal towed mount and the M167 20mm Vulcan towed mount but nothing on the Hispano. I'll look more into that.

2 both the Bergepanzer and the Pionierpanzer Leopard were in use

Cool. They are both in the list.

3 bridging equipment included mobile floating armoured bridges (MOFAB) German built Faltschwimmbrücke, Uniflot pontoon bridges and good old Bailey bridges

I've included the Faltschimmbrucke and the Bailey Bridge. The MOFAB I've put in as the M2 Alligator. I'm not sure if this is correct or not - but everyone simply describes it as the mobile floating armoured bridges (MOFAB) which is not real helpful... I'm leaving out the Uniflot pontoons as there are enough options already.

4 softskins included : jeeps Minerva, Landrover 4x2, Bombardier Iltis (late 80’s),
Trucks UNIMOG types ABB, ABX5, MAN I 6T, MAN II 136 4T

Thanks heaps - I'll be using all of those - except the Minerva - too ugly!! Just kidding it seems a wee bit 1950's to me.

5 no M577 tank and recce units used the CVRT Sultan, other units used a M113 command version

Great - got that.

6 Belgian SCB 2130 radar system

So - any idea when the M113A1-B-SCB came into service? I found out that the Unimog mounting the SCB wasn't introduced until 1995. It seems you could also run the radar from a ground mount - so I'm not sure what to do here...

Thanks Henk

Richard
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RichardC
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:35 am
Another question or two

Did the Beglian Army have any EW capabilities?  If so - what would they have been transported in?

Did the Belgian Army have a standard motorcycle? I've put in a FN MIlitary M13 Motorcycle as the Dispatch Riders mount. It doesn't really matter, but I'd like to be accurate if I could.

Thanks

Richard
Andy Rix
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:46 am
I have Mil Balance 83/84 and 86/87 and can drop in a list of equipment totals? this and the reference below probably gives a reasonable view of introduction of M113 and AIFV
Can also do an extract from a 1985 version of Isbys Armies of NATOs Central Front if you need it?
take it you have checked out the Fire and Fury Lists can drop a link if that helps?
there are some particularly amusing bits in Isbys including M3s with quad .50s in late 70s and an atomic dems coy in the core engr battalion
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RichardC
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Re: Help with Belgian List

on Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:48 am
Hi Andy

Thanks for those suggestions. I have all those already and particularly used Isby and the Fire & Fury TO&Es to help. I also had a look through the MilTech Military Balance issues for the time frame to confirm a couple of things.

All good - thanks for the comments.

Richard
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