Share
Go down
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Danish army lists

on Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:09 pm
Does anyone have some good resources for creating a danish army list?

I’ve been interested in World War Two since discovering that the Wehrmacht built a railroad thru a plot of land we owned in Denmark, but its only since starting playing Batttlegroup I’ve started to read more about the danish part of the war, so havent been able to gather much resources.
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:45 pm
I would start with the Chakoten web side of the Danish Military History Society.

They used to have a stunning series of articles on the organisation of the 1940 army down to the last man and his dog (and bullet). However there was a hiccup in the site and these articles seem to have disappeared. However you may be able to track them down if you are able to contact them personally.

In any event please let us know what you find, because the Danish army is one of my favourites too because (among other things) of the wonderfully quirky equipment they had. And they put up a tremendous fight, which was fully appreciated by the Germans, despite that fight being severely hampered before it commenced and quickly curtailed, by political considerations outside the military's control.
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Re: Danish army lists

on Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:10 pm
I used the way-back machine to find some old articles from Chakoten, amongst other things a full OOB for ChainOf Command, so I know how many stands they had.
But BG doesnt use stands unfortunately :/

But on a good note, I found a book with danish WW2 equipment, so once i have read that I will have some more info (I already have found some things I didnt already know).


Sent from Topic'it App
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:06 am
Hi Sprygsy

I would suggest that your research be guided in the first instance by whether you wish to game historical engagements with what was actually available on the morning of 9 April or ‘what ifs’ based on the mobilised Danish Army (ie one based on wartime establishments).

If it is the former, then the current Chakoten website provides a wealth of information (look up articles in English as a short-cut) in the 3 main articles and two supplements on ‘The Danish Army on April 9th, 1940’. While a little light on detail below company/platoon level, it does give total numbers of heavy weapons and/or squads, so reasonable deductions can be made in conjunction with official TOE’s.

If it is the latter, then the CoC set is not much use unless you are a CoC player. As I mentioned, the Chakoten site had a fabulous set of articles on the detailed organisation of Danish infantry etc but it seems to have disappeared (perhaps I am not navigating the site correctly – not being a Danish-speaker is a disadvantage, no doubt). You could leave a message in the site’s guest book. I expect that contacting Per Finsted may pay great dividends. Finally, Paul of Early War Miniatures is in contact with some very knowledgeable Danish wargamers/historians and may be willing to share contacts (incidentally I finally succumbed on Saturday and bought a bunch of his new Danish equipment and troops – very nice indeed).

Finally if you havn't seen it already, then the Danish film April 9th is a must-see. Not only is it a great film devoid of the usual Hollywood-style nonsense, but it provides great source material on some of the typical events of the day, platoon-level tactics and shows in some detail a tripod-mounted LMG and a motorbike-mounted 20mm gun in action. I am told the uniform and equipment detail has been very well rendered too.
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:00 pm
On a more immediate, practical level, the following I have been able to reverse-engineer from our own OdB for a demo wargame we showed many years ago.

Danish infantry company 1940
This consisted of HQ, 3 LMG platoons, a LMG tripod platoon (each platoon of 4 squads) and an admin squad.

Company HQ
Captain, company commander with pistol, binoculars etc
Lieutenant, second in command with pistol, binoculars etc
Officers’ batman with rifle (or 2 depending on source)

NCO, command squad leader with rifle
2 observers with rifles and binoculars
7 runners with rifles ( 3 with bicycles)
3 musicians with rifles, swopped for bugles and sidedrums when not in action

There was also a group of 8 rifle-armed scouts and two patrol leaders. It would appear this was grouped together under company HQ and was the domain of the junior officer.

Platoon HQ
Officer platoon leader with pistol. Binoculars, etc
Platoon leader’s batman with rifle
NCO second in command with rifle
Observer with rifle
Runner with rifles
Runner/sniper with scoped sniper rifle
4 rifle grenadiers

The LMG squad
NCO squad leader with rifle, binoculars and mag holder
LMG gunner with LMG
LMG assistant with rifle, 2 mag holders and spare barrels in a case
Riflemen nos 1,2,4 and 5 with rifle and mag holder
Rifleman no 3 with rifle and 2 mag holders
Grenadier with rifle, mag holder and 10 hand grenades  

Tripod LMG squad
Organised as per LMG squad other than
• The magazines were larger
• The NCO carried special ammunition and anti-tank ammunition in his mags
• The grenadier on top of everything else, lugged the tripod around

Admin squad
Here I am afraid I am dredging very vague memories. The squad was led by a Sergeant major with pistol and probably contained the usual one or more service NCOs, cooks, armourers, medics and artisans. It was equipped with a kitchen truck, two baggage trucks and 2 horse-drawn ammunition wagons.  

Likely support squads:

MMG squad (from battalion)
NCO commander with pistol
Gunner with pistol
Loader with rifle
2-3 ammunition numbers with rifles

81mm Mortar squad (from battalion)
As above

20mm machine cannon section (from battalion/regiment)
NCO section leader with pistol
Gunner with pistol
2 loaders with rifle
3 ammunition carriers

37mm anti-tank gun (from regiment)
NCO section leader with pistol
Gunner with pistol
Breach operator with rifle
2 loaders with rifles
4 ammunition carriers with rifles

In addition, the 20mm and 37mm sections each had 4 men with 2-horse drawn limbers and two ammunition carts to pull the guns and transport the ammunition. I can only assume that the MMG and mortar sections had similar arrangements.


Last edited by gebhk on Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:52 pm
Found this in the loft!

Motorcycle company
The company was made up of HQ, a motorcycle platoon, a motorcycle cannon platoon and company trains.

Company command squad
Officer, company commander, probably in personnel car with driver
Officer, company second in command, probably on motorbike with sidecar with driver
NCO command squad leader, bugler, gunsmith, personnel car with driver
 
Motorcycle platoon
Made up of HQ and 4 squads

Platoon HQ:
Platoon leader, observer, motorcycle with sidecar and driver
Platoon second in command, runner, motorcycle with sidecar and driver
2 despatch riders on solo motorcycles

Motorcycle squad
NCO squad leader, tripod carrier/ammunition carrier, motorcycle with sidecar and driver
LMG gunner, motorcycle with LMG sidecar and driver
Ammunition carrier, motorcycle with ammunition sidecar and driver
Ammunition carrier, assistant gunner, motorcycle with driver/despatch rider

Motorcycle Cannon platoon
Made up of HQ and 4 cannon squads

Platoon HQ
As per motorcycle platoon HQ but each despatch rider is replaced with:
Ammunition carrier, motorcycle with ammunition sidecar and driver

Motorcycle cannon squad
NCO squad leader, ammunition carrier, motorcycle with sidecar and driver
Gunner, motorcycle with 20mm autocannon sidecar and driver/assistant gunner
Ammunition carrier, motorcycle with ammunition sidecar and driver/ammunition carrier

Company Trains  
Workshop truck, kitchen truck, baggage truck and ammunition truck, each with driver.  


If my sums are correct, this makes 98 men, According to Per Finsted, the total wartime establishment was about 112 men. This suggests there were another 14 men or so in the command squad and trains establishment. The following seem reasonable:
3 motorcycle despatch riders on solo motorbikes as per bicycle company - 3
Company sergeant major - 1
NCO medic and 2 stretcher bearers - 3
Cook plus assistant - 2
2 Vehicle mechanics - 2  
tailor, bootmaker - 2


Last edited by gebhk on Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Re: Danish army lists

on Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:27 pm
I found this website, quartermastersection.com.
They list the infantry HQ as 15 men, if my memory is correct, that is including runners and such.
So 14 sounds about right.

Im currently watch 9 april on netflix, rarely watch movies, but it is really interesting Smile

Sent from Topic'it App
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Re: Danish army lists

on Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:28 pm
Have to do a proper read on Chakoten it seems, and thats a good find on your loft Smile

Sent from Topic'it App
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:35 am
Hi Sprygsy

Found more stuff on the Danish Army. This time the fire support company. The company structure for now, platoon details later.

The company consisted of company HQ, trains, 2 machine gun platoons (4 guns each) 2 mortar platoons (3 tubes each) and a 20mm autocannon platoon (4 guns). In combat, it was normally split up with some parts going to the infantry companies with the balance remaining in the battalion commander’s hand. The splitting was usually but not necessarily along platoon lines. Thus, the mortar platoon could be allocated as two platoons of three tubes each or 3 groups of two each. A tactical manual illustration shows an infantry company supported by 2 MMGs, 2 mortars and a 20mm autocannon.  

The detail of the organisation of the HQ and trains is hazy and is based on earlier 1932 organisation of similar units and other clues. Total manpower was approximately 300 men.

Company HQ

Command
CO (officer) with car and driver
Second i/c (officer) with motorcycle and sidecar plus driver

Command staff group
Group leader (NCO)
Telephone team: leader (NCO), 4 telephonists
3 musicians
3-6 bicycle messengers (I would think towards the lower end)
2 motorcycle messengers
1-3 foot messengers
1-2 horse mounted messengers
(It seems likely there were 9-12 messengers in total, a mixture of all 4 types)  
1-2 batmen for the officers
At least one horse-drawn wagon/cart for equipment with one most probably attached to the telephone group.
(Oddly, I can find no trace of observers. However, it is possible that given the company was expected rarely if ever to fight together, no need was seen for any and all observation was left to the platoons)  

Trains
Again, frustratingly, I have no information on personnel, but surmise there were the usual company sergeant major, service NCO’s, medics/stretcher bearers, cooks, artisans and drivers. Transport consisted of two kitchen trucks (one for mortar and machine cannon platoons, the other for the company HQ and machine gun platoons) and three baggage trucks (one for the company HQ and MMG platoons and one each for the mortar and machine cannon platoons.

Oddly, the company did not have its own ammunition group. Instead there were three horse-drawn wagons in the second ammunition platoon of the battalion staff company; 1 each for MMG, mortar and machine cannon ammo. Further ammunition was carried by trucks in the regiment’s ammunition column.


Last edited by gebhk on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:37 am
The MMG platoon
The platoon consisted of HQ and 4 MMG squads

Platoon HQ
CO (officer) and batman
Second i/c (NCO)
Carts’ leader (presumably NCO who remained in charge of the squad carts when the platoon deployed for action)
Range calculator (with range finder)
Angle calculator (with angle measuring doo-dah, can’t for the life of me remember the English word) and other odds and sods like an anemometer.    
2 runners

4x Machine gun squad
Squad leader (NCO)
Gunner
2 assistant gunners
3 ammunition carriers
2 signallers/security men
Equipment cart man
Groom

The squad was equipped with an 8mm M.1929 machine gun with accessories and a cart train M.1932 (limber, ammunition cart, machine gun cart) pulled by one horse.
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:07 pm
THE MORTAR PLATOON
The platoon consisted of HQ and 3 mortar squads

Platoon HQ
CO (officer) and batman
Second i/c (NCO)
Carts’ leader (presumably NCO who remained in charge of the squad carts when the platoon deployed for action)
Telephone team (NCO + 3 telephonists)
Range calculator (with range finder)
Angle calculator (with angle measuring doo-dah, can’t for the life of me remember the English word) and other odds and sods like an anemometer.
2 bicycle messengers
8 liaison and security men

3x mortar squad
Squad leader (NCO)
Gunner
3 assistant gunners
4 ammunition carriers
2 equipment cart men
2 grooms

The squad was equipped with an 8mm M.1931 Infantry Mortar with accessories, a mortar cart with one horse and an ammunition cart with one horse.
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:08 pm
THE MACHINE CANNON PLATOON
The platoon consisted of HQ and 4 cannon squads

Platoon HQ
CO (officer) and batman
Second i/c (NCO)
Carts’ leader (presumably NCO who remained in charge of the squad carts when the platoon deployed for action)
Range calculator (with range finder)

4x cannon squad
Squad leader (NCO)
Gunner
2 assistant gunners
3 ammunition carriers
2 equipment cart men
2 grooms

The squad was equipped with a 20mm M.1938 Machine Cannon with accessories, two limbers each pulled by a horse and three ammunition carriers.

All today's contributions are based on work by Per Finsted.
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Re: Danish army lists

on Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:28 am
Wow, this is really something, I better start consolidating all of this info and the info I have into some kind of list, thank you very much!!!

Sent from Topic'it App
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:42 pm
One more for the pot Smile

Regimental infantry gun company
This was equipped with Bofors 37mm anti-tank guns and was composed of HQ, trains and 3 three-gun platoons.

HQ & trains
CO (officer) mounted + groom; second i/c (officer) mounted + groom; clerk
Command squad leader (NCO); motor vehicle leader (probably NCO); 3 despatch riders; motorcycle with sidecar and driver for general staff use.
Two baggage and one kitchen trucks with drivers.

There were supposed to be another 10 lance corporals and enlisted men in the HQ and trains. These were likely to be observers, cooks, a vehicle mechanic, an armourer, tailor/bootmaker, medics & stretcher bearers. There may have been one or two batmen for the officers, but then again, the grooms could have perfectly adequately doubled up as batmen.

A bit of a mystery is the absence of admin NCOs, in particular a sergeant-major. I can’t imagine any modern army company without this iconic fixture. Your guess is as good as mine, however the total manpower for HQ & trains (based on rations allocation) should be 24 men.

Gun platoon
Consisted of HQ and 3 sections

Gun platoon HQ
Platoon leader (officer) with batman; platoon second in command (NCO); cart leader (NCO)
3 bicycle messengers, musician, observer with range finder

3 Gun sections, each:
Team leader (NCO)
Gunner and 3 assistant gunners (probably breach operator, loader and two ammo handlers)
4 ammunition carriers, 2 grooms and 2 carters
The section had one 37mm M. 37 infantry gun with accessories, 2 one-horse limbers and two ammo carts.
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Danish army lists

on Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:45 am
Ok, now that I’m back from vacation I can give this a go [smiley]https://illiweb.com/fa/i/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/smiley]
Army list under construction in post below.

Sent from Topic'it App


Last edited by Sprygsy on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:51 pm; edited 3 times in total
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:12 pm
Hi

I would add a bicycle to the options for the despatch rider - this would have been the most common form of transport after 'pedes apostolorum'.

I am surprised that there is no allocation of a horse as transport for the commander of Danish LMG companies. This seems to have been de-rigeur in most armies of the day. And is all the more surprising given the generous allocation of transport, motor transport at that, for the officers of the heavy weapons' companies of infantry battalions. However I have found no shred of evidence that Danish LMG company commanders were allocated a mount, so that is that for the moment. However therefore, perhaps the option of a forward headquarters on foot should be available in the list?

Bestest
K
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Danish army lists

on Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:11 pm
Hi,
Yes, totally forgot to add the bicycle for the dispatch, i added that as default.

Changed the FHQ to be on foot, and the possibility to add the Runner special rule (might remove that when i get home and can read the Runner rule properly).
Wanted to reflect all the messengers in some way. They will probably end up as a separate unit in some way.

Sent from Topic'it App
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Danish army lists

on Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:36 am
Danish infantry company
—————————————-
Forward headquarters units
—————————————-
Forward HQ
Unit composition: 3 men
Transport: -
Special rules: senior officer, unique
Options:
may be mounted in heavy car +?pts
May add up to 2 Runners for +?pts each

Dispatches
Unit composition: 2 men
Transport: Bicycles
Special rules: dispatches
Options:
May be mounted on horseback
May be mounted on motorcycle

Mortar spotter
Unit composition: 2 men
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options: may be mounted in heavy car

2 Scout squads
Unit composition: 5 men
Transport: -
Special rules: Scout
Options:

————————
Infantry units
————————
Platoon HQ
Unit composition: 10 men
Transport: -
Special rules: officer, mortar spotter
Options:
Upgrade 2 men to a sniper rifle team +?pts

3 rifle squads
Unit composition: 8 men
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:

Platoon support units
Each platoon support unit may be purchased twice for each platoon. No more than four platoon support units may be purchased for each platoon.

LMG support unit
Unit composition: ? men with M/1924 8mm Madsen or M/1929 8mm Madsen LMG on bipod
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:
May be mounted on tripod for +?pts

Autocannon support unit
Unit composition: ? Men with M/38 20mm autocannon
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:

Anti-tank gun support unit
Unit composition: ? Men with 37mm Bofors gun
Transport: -
Special rules:
Options:

———————————
Artillery units
———————————
On-board Mortar unit
Unit composition: ? Men with 81mm Brandt mortar
Transport:
Special rules:
Options:

———————————
Logistics support units
———————————
Supply train
Unit composition: 1 man
Transport: horse and cart
Special rules: resupply
Options: may add up to two horse and cart
May upgrade all horse and cart in unit to light truck for +?pts each.


Last edited by Sprygsy on Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:30 am; edited 2 times in total
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:17 am
Making progress Smile

Just a suggestion, but you may be over-inflating the 'scout' squad. In practice this was clearly meant to perform similarly to a platoon in its own right. There were two 'patrol leaders' (NCOs I would bet) who acted as section leaders. The size of the two sections was not fixed so I can only assume they were allocated men from the pool of 8 'patrolmen' as needed for any particular task. These squads would report in to the 2 i/c officer.  I think this chap was (amongst other things) the company's operations officer (a luxury one can afford, I guess, if you have an army of only 2 divisions) and he was therefore responsible for gathering intelligence: among other things by sending the scouts out where he thought appropriate and collating their findings. However, I think it highly unlikely that he would be routinely running about the countryside with the patrol squad as this would make as monkey of his primary role as the COs assistant and being on the spot to take over when the CO was unavailable.

I would therefore suggest that your 'scout squad' should be up to 2  'scout sections' of NCO and 2-6 EM (for a total of 8 EM in all). Or for the sake of simplicity: up to 2 sections of  NCO + 4 men).

Regarding despatch riders: from what I can gather, despatch riders were equipped with solo motorbikes rather than sidecar jobs.

The Danes called their infantry units 'light machine gun companies', LMG platoons and LMG squads. There were no riflemen in the squads - apart from the squad leader, machine gunner, his assistant and the grenadier, the remaining four men were termed 'LMG ammunition carriers' rather than riflemen. While not hugely important in itself, it speaks volumes about Danish tactical doctrine. Also, you need to bear in mind that unlike many other contemporary sections (such as the early German one), the Danish section was not designed to carry out fire and movement independently.      

Bestest
K
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Re: Danish army lists

on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:45 pm
Shifting the scouts to two squads of five, and removing the officer-rule sounds correct in that case.
Since they were attached to the HQ I want them to stay in the FHQ section though, at least for now.
Removing the Officer rule decreases the amount of Officers also, I dont want an unrealistic amount of officers.

Sent from Topic'it App
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Re: Danish army lists

on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:50 pm
Edited the army list,
- changed the scout squad
- removed the side car from the dispatches

Sent from Topic'it App
gebhk
Posts : 51
Join date : 2018-07-10

Re: Danish army lists

on Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:41 pm
To be fair, the Danes did have a lot of officers - 6 in most companies because they usually had 2 in company HQ and by and large a square organisation, so 4 platoon leaders. Most nations had 4 at a push, while the Germans typically had two (company CO and 1st platoon leader, while the rest of the platoons made do with NCOs as leaders. The 15-year gap in recruitment had its consequences!)

Incidentally are the two 'mortar spotters' the 2 observers? If so that wasn't really their role and not sure how they could carry it out without commo equipment. Their job was to keep an eye on the enemy, their neighbours and signals from their own side and to keep the CO informed of the situation. Observers at the lower levels also usually had some basic signalling equipment such as flare guns etc. The mortar platoons had their own spotter teams which did have some rudimentary telephone equipment. These would often be attached to the HQ of the unit they were supporting.

Bestest
K
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Re: Danish army lists

on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:56 pm
I just realised something.
What I’m trying to do is to force the Danish army to look like most other army set-ups in Battlegroup, but the Danish army is a completely different thing.
If the danish army had lots of officers, then let them have lots if officers, it will still be up to the player to figure out what they want to put on the table...

List-building is hard!

Sent from Topic'it App
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Re: Danish army lists

on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:57 pm
And yes, my interpretation of Observers was Mortar spotters, that was the closest thing to an observer I could think of.

Sent from Topic'it App
Sprygsy
Posts : 44
Join date : 2018-02-16

Re: Danish army lists

on Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:44 pm
From the source I have, the book 9. April 1940 by karsten skjold petersen and Torsten cumberland Jacobsen, each regiment had three batallions and a cannon company.

Each batallion had six companies, one staff company, four rifle companies and a heavy weapon company.

Each rifle company had four platoons with four rifle squads each.

The heavy weapon company had 4 squads (one mortar, one cannon, two MG)



Sent from Topic'it App
Sponsored content

Re: Danish army lists

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum