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El Cid
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Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Sat May 12, 2018 3:50 pm
I want to build a Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup of 1939.

My problems:

a) there is no Option for a FHQ in a Tank/Tankette.
Maybe one could add the costs of a Tankette (MG) = 10 Pts., or of a Tankette (2cm) = 12 Pts., or of any other Tank,  to the points of the FHQ.
Would that be correct with the rules ?

b) there are no officers in each one of the Tank/Tankette Units, and that is historically not correct.
The only officer I can get (beside the FHQ) is from the Recce Command Unit, and that's an AC.
How can this Problem be solved, also in Points-costs ?

Help appreciatet
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wolflord
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Sat May 12, 2018 4:09 pm
a) As BG is mainly a historically game, adding the cost of a tank to your FWHQ in order to mount it on one is ok.

b) This could be deliberate, reflecting poor performance of the officerers. Italian and Russian in Kursk tank platoons also have no officers.


Greetings
Wolflord
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Piers
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Sat May 12, 2018 6:51 pm
You don't get lots of 'Officers' in a Polish force as their command and control wasn't that good like most early war forces. It reflects an armies communication and flexibility. Less flexible, less initiative - less officers.

The officer ability merely gives an order bonus, not reflect a real officer on the ground.
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El Cid
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Sun May 13, 2018 10:47 am
I know that the officer is merely an order Bonus, and that Poland has very few officers, but in playing a tank-only force you just have 1 FHQ und the Recce command.
That can't be correct.


Wolflord wrote: reflecting poor performance of the officers

then the Germans should have lesser tank officers in early Blitzkrieg, reflecting Mokra and the like, just to be fair Wink
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Piers
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Sun May 13, 2018 7:50 pm
It's not right.

You can't play a tank only force in Battlegroup unless in Battlegroup Tobruk. Can't moan about historical accuracy and then want to only field tanks...

Take a look at the force requirements, you have to take some infantry.
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El Cid
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Sun May 13, 2018 8:29 pm
I just want to show you the following diagramms:

http://wp39.struktury.net/samodzielna-kompania-czolgow-lekkich-v-1939.html

its a Vickers Light Tank Platoon, as to be seen on page 24 of Blitzkrieg book.

2 times the Tank Unit = 190 Points
FHQ in Vickers Tank as platoon commander = 43 Point (incl. the 20 Points for the Tank-add-on for the commander)
a total of 233 Points,
and I should be able to play it, as I should be able to stage a part of a bigger action or battle
and now I'm missing the other officers in each section, giving me the orders-add-on of +1 for each one on dicing for orders
so: 1D6 + 1 (Commander) + 2 (section officers) / or +1 for the sic of the unit

is historically correct

more sources:

http://wp39.struktury.net/batalion-czolgow-lekkich-7tp-kompania-czolgow-1939.html

http://wp39.struktury.net/kompania-czolgow-lekkich-wolnobieznych-renault-1938.html

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samodzielna_kompania_czo%C5%82g%C3%B3w_rozpoznawczych

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/62_Samodzielna_Kompania_Czo%C5%82g%C3%B3w_Rozpoznawczych

http://www.lodz-eksploracja.org/forum/thread-1784.html

http://derela.republika.pl/formacje.htm

I don' want to change the really wonderful rules, I just like to have a little bit more possibilities for playing with the Polish Battlegroup on small Levels (< 350 points)
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Greebs
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Sun May 13, 2018 9:22 pm
Try drawing up an infantry list, and see if your orders go any further, even with the single additional order from the Platoon leader.

Part of the way the rules represent poor command, control and co-ordination is to give you plenty of units, but nowhere near enough orders to use them all simultaneously.

The Polish are in no way special in this.

You've already decided to ignore the force organisation aspect of the rules, you've also decided to ignore the fact you cannot put your Forward HQ in a tank. Since you've already decided to stuff the rules as written because you want to spam tanks in an army that straight up didn't have many, why not make everyone a frigging officer and have done with it?
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Piers
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Sun May 13, 2018 11:21 pm
Oh well, if you don't want to change the rules that's good.

Neither do I. Smile

I like my Polish list as it is. Given their lack of tanks, an army should focus on Infantry as it's strong arm.

Of course, what you do in your own home between consenting adults is up to you! Wink
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Powermonger
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Mon May 14, 2018 12:14 am
Piers Polish are rock hard to dislodge!!
Enjoy playing the polish infantry.
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El Cid
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Mon May 14, 2018 5:31 am
I'm already playing with a Polish army, a Pulk Kawalerii.

FHQ (mounted) + Goniec (motorbike) + wire team mounted

Full Platoon Kawalerii ( HQ + 3 troops, all mounted + dismounted)
extra Kawalerii troop (Warsaw police squad, in marine-blue uniforms, all mounted)

platoon support:
LMG-troop mounted (+ dismounted)
AT-gun + extra loader-team + Troika-tow
Tankette

2 Forward Observers (mounted)
2 Horse-artillery guns (02/26 ones) + extra loader-teams + 6-horse-tows

up to five Recce units (wz.34, snipers, Tankette 20mm)


so - I'm used to working with an "infantry" army  Wink

what I wanted to try is playing with a tank platoon on its own, which is possible to do in other rulesets I already played
but since Battlegroup is THE ruleset for me ................. well, I tried to have another (official, or at last semi-official) list/possibility/etc pp.
of couse I can twist the rules and lists, but that's not what I'm intending, believe it or not

I also would like to have rules for using one of the famous Polish trains Very Happy
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Piers
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 am
Yes... I must do some train rules...
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El Cid
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Mon May 14, 2018 8:50 am
Piers wrote:Yes... I must do some train rules...

my hero I love you
gebhk
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:40 am
Sorry for these belated ramblings, but I couldn't help myself. I think the fundamental problem here is that the force organisation rules are not historical but geared to providing a more satisfying game (ie by providing a more interesting mix of 'toys'). They do this by allowing 'support units' in wholly unrealistically large amounts and from wholly unlikely sources - so that often the supporting elements significantly outnumber the base unit.

This is a virtually universal feature of rules systems geared to small unit actions. In effect an attempt is made to reflect the characteristics and equipment proportions of an entire national army in one platoon or company. The result is often a historically bizarre collection of kit and troops from all over the army in unrealistically small amounts. While a group such as the cavalry battle group quoted by El Cid earlier may have come about in the shattered parts of the Polish army by a bizarre set of coincidences, it would certainly have been unthinkable in the German one. In any event it could only have existed for a few hours as it simply would not have the ability to support all those elements on the march let alone in action.      

Let me emphasize that I don't have a problem with this, but we need to accept it for what it is to avoid this type of debate.

Historically, El Cid is of course right. TKs would only be committed to battle as a platoon, (however depleted) as a minimum - more usually as the whole company /squadron. This was not just a matter of doctrine (it was, and very sensibly too) but of simple logistics. Without the skilled and constant attentions of specialist fitters, fuel and specialist ammunition, the TKs would cease to function in a matter of hours.

In the case of tanks (and TKs should really not be considered tanks, any more than British Scout Carriers are) these were never committed in less than company size and always remained under their own battalion command.    

Yes the Polish army had relatively few tanks. That does not mean that, paradoxically, every infantry platoon could have access to one. Historically, infantry platoons were just that. The same goes for the Germans for that matter.
gebhk
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:06 am
The simplest solution to El Cid's problem as the rules stand, I think, is to have an FHQ mounted on a PF 508. This was one of the TK3/TKS company or squadron commander's two historical mounts. I presume there is nothing in the rules to prevent the commander hopping onto his tank as he sees fit, as his historical counterpart would have done?

The 'minimum infantry requirement' could be satisfied with a cavalry platoon. On very rare occasions the cavalry squadron and TK company of an infantry division's recce assets could be combined for a specific task (usually under the command of the cavalry squadron CO). However the platoons would not be mixed so the justification is very thin but the best I can think of.

El Cid does however point to one anomaly. The Recce Command choice only allows mounting on a wz 29 armoured car (representative of two vehicles in the entire Polish army) but does not allow representation of the 50+ wz 34 and TK3/TKS vehicles in the same role. Is there a reason for this?
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Piers
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:43 am
Reason is... I miss things when writing lists.
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El Cid
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:58 am
Gebhk wrote:The simplest solution to El Cid's problem as the rules stand, .....
As we don't play tournaments or the like in our club's BG-section it's just a matter of beforehand agreement between the combatants, which is always possible, and normally works.
But there are lots of BG-groups strictly adhering to the written word of Piers  .....  so  ......  maybe  ......  one should include all these possiblities ..... if that's O.K. for you, Piers

Piers wrote:Reason is... I miss things when writing lists
If I can help completing the list of the "missing things" ....... I'd like to
if you want my help, just contact me, I'll be there
gebhk
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:58 am
Reason is... I miss things when writing lists.
Ooh boy, can I relate to that!
JayM
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:58 am
I miss things when reading lists, so it's all good in the end.
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Warwick
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:38 pm
I think the main point has been slightly missed. The Polish list is not, primarily, a tank force list. It is an infantry-based forced, so it does not allow FHQ to have the extra tank. Obviously, in reality, tank commanders had a tank, but we don't want to encourage players to fight with a Polish tank force, which would seem rather odd, given we are producing a 'general' Polish army for 1939 list... specific forces would of course alter (a lot), and in pre-written scenarios, go for your life... but in general pick-up play, we want the lists to recreate a more general reality. There are always exceptions in every list in every army... but exceptions can't all too easily become the a-historical rule if the lists allow them. That's the judgement call, when to let it slide for the fun of the game, when not too...
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El Cid
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:58 pm
I totally agree with you looking at the "tournament players".
But all the gamers with the one and only correct Intention, i.e. recreating historical battles and engagements, should be given, in my opinion, the option(s) to do this with all the odds and ends created by history.
And therefor with all the "specialities" provided by armies and army lists.

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Greebs
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:17 pm
There's only so many hours in the day to write army lists, and pages in the book to print them. If recreating history is your jam, what do you even need an army list for? Find the Orbat for the force or encounter you are recreating, pow, there's your army list. Calculate the BR value and start rolling dice.
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Piers
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:06 pm
But... if you want to recreate history... why do you need the lists?

You don't need them at all.

JayM
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:20 am
You need to get the BR from the lists don't you? The rules just say to assign BR between 0 and 5 "based on importance" which is pretty subjective. Is that the intent, or is there a general guideline I've missed (other than extrapolating from the lists)?
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Piers
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:40 am
If you are making up a historical scenario, which seems to be what has been implied, then you use your discretion as to what works best for your scenario.

So if your historical scenario has a particularly aggressive Polish defence you may adjust the BR to reflect your interpretation.

Our list merely reflect the main generic force structure we want players to use. We don't put in everything as then exceptions get used by default. That's where historical scenarios come in.
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El Cid
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

on Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:02 pm
as already stated above:
But there are lots of BG-groups strictly adhering to the written word of Piers ..... so ...... maybe ...... one should include all these possiblities

I'm tired of explaining why I want official lists (by Warwick and Piers) to be able to play evrywhere else but at my home-club
and that's why I'd need the BR (as JayM suggests) and the points
but if only the result is bashing .... well ....
sorry about that
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Re: Polish Tank/Tankette Battlegroup

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