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Chapps
Posts : 7
Join date : 2018-04-17

First Game Questions

on Tue May 01, 2018 4:57 pm
Greetings!

While moderating our first learning game of BGK (Clash of Reconnaissance) the following questions came up with our group that I'm hoping other players on the forum can help to clear up!

1. Is pivoting a move? Example: If an AT gun or a fixed-gun vehicle is issued an Open Fire! order and wishes to fire at a target outside it's current arc of fire, can can it pivot and fire twice?  Or does it need to be issued a Manoeuver and Fire order to pivot and fire once?

2. If an AT gun or fixed-gun vehicle is under an Ambush Fire order can it Reaction fire outside of its current arc of fire?  

3. We got mightily confused by the Infantry column of the Unit Morale Table!  On P46 - The Infantry Unit Morale rule says "An infantry squad or team must take a Morale test if it takes any casualties. Veteran and Elite units can ignore one of the ‘pinned’ results on the Unit Morale table..."  (a 3 roll).
a. Before any infantry unit rolls a Morale Test due to a casualty aren't all infantry units already pinned by failing their previous Cover Save?  
b. On a 3 roll for Veteran/Elite infantry units they avoid having to take a second pin. But even if they are Regular/Inexperienced and take the second pin how does it make any difference since all units discard extra pins leaving only one remaining pin after fire is finished?
c. Do all infantry units always Rout/Surrender on a 1,2 roll since they begin the Morale test already pinned?
d. How can an infantry unit be assigned a Pinned result from a Morale Test without causing Rout Surrender?    

4. The Panzer IV G is listed with both bow and coaxial MGs in addition to the main gun.  Since there is a maximum of only 2 shots per unit under a Fire order, would the bow MG likely only be used if the tank wished to rotate the turret (say to the side) to fire main gun or coaxial MG once at a target in the turret's arc of fire, and then take the second shot with the bow MG at a target already in its fixed arc of fire to the front of the tank?  

5. For 82mm mortar hits on a PzIVG. Is this procedure correct? After the hit is assigned to the tank resolve as Aimed Fire from HE so go directly to the Penetration Table. The armour penetration value of the 82mm mortar HE shell is 2 versus the tank's side armour rating of M (PzIVG has schurtzen so M instead of N) yielding a required dice roll of 9.  Roll 2D6 and resolve as tank destroyed for roll >9 etc.?

6. The artillery rules indicate, "If the spotter round is positioned badly, then the spotter unit can cancel the fire mission,.."   If a spotting round deviates out of LOS of the spotter is the option to keep the artillery strike still valid or is the strike automatically cancelled since the spotter did not see where it fell?      

Any comments would be greatly appreciated!   Thanks,  Gary
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pzivh43
Posts : 46
Join date : 2018-02-13
Age : 67
Location : Haymarket VA, USA

Re: First Game Questions

on Tue May 01, 2018 5:18 pm
I'll take a shot---someone more knowledgeable will correct me if I get it wrong:

1.  Pivoting is a move, so you could pivot the AT gun and fire once.

2.  No.  Target must be in it's arc.

3.a  Yes
  b and c.  A unit is only Pinned once.   If you roll a 1, you rout/surrender.  Additional Pins are ignored.
  d.  A unit is only Pinned once.

4.  A tank can fire it's main gun OR its MGs on a single Fire.  So it could fire its main gun at a target, and then fire one or both of it's MGs (depending on if they were in the firing arc).  Or any combination of that.  But can't combine its main gun and MGs in one fire.

5.  Looks right to me.  Although I think the PzIVG didn't have the side skirts---think those were on the H model?

6.  This is not really covered specifically in the rules.  Although I think I recall either Piers or Warwick saying they allowed the rounds to land out of LOS.  Others have said they don't.  I favor letting them land, as I think it's in the spirit of the chaotic battlefield that BGK has.

Regards,

Mike
Nazrat
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Join date : 2018-02-12
Age : 58
Location : Charlotte, NC USA
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Re: First Game Questions

on Tue May 01, 2018 7:32 pm
Mike has 1 and 2 correct. The entirety of 3 is based on one wrong assumption. Units that are hit by fire and take casualties are NOT automatically pinned. They are only pinned if they fail their Morale Test. So a. NO. b. There is no "second pin" involved in that rule. Vet and Elite units are only pinned on a 1 or 2, unlike all other units that are pinned on a 1-3. c. No, since units that take Morale Tests are NOT already pinned. d. Same as before...

4. Mike has it perfectly.

5. You don't EVER go to Aimed Fire for Indirect Fire. You roll your two dice per gun and a 6 is a direct hit (wherein you roll penetration vs. armor) and a 2-5 is a potential pin. 1s miss, of course.

6. By the rules if it falls out of the spotter's line of sight you can still call the mission in. Many players logically house rule it so that if it falls out of LOS it must be cancelled.

Jerry
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pzivh43
Posts : 46
Join date : 2018-02-13
Age : 67
Location : Haymarket VA, USA

Re: First Game Questions

on Tue May 01, 2018 7:57 pm
Jerry,

Doh---thanks for the correction on 3.

BTW, are you running any BG games at HCON this year??

Regards,

Mike
Chapps
Posts : 7
Join date : 2018-04-17

Re: First Game Questions

on Tue May 01, 2018 9:47 pm
Mike & Jerry,

Thanks for your answers!  They clear up a pile of wondering.

3. Morale Table:  We were playing it wrong! Everything makes sense as soon as a failed save on an Aimed Fire hit only causes a casualty instead of both a pin and a casualty. I know exactly where we  got messed up.  On P35 "For each hit rolled the target unit must take a Cover Save. The Cover Save is exactly the same as for Area Fire, but is repeated here for clarity."  So off we went flipping back to Area Fire where we did the Cover Saves and also applied the Pinning rules there, "If the target unit fails to pass its Cover Save, then it is marked as pinned."  Then we dutifully returned to the Aimed Fire section under Cover Saves and read that for each failed save causes a casualty, figuring it was additive.  So we mistakenly ended up with both effects leading to puzzlement in the Morale Table.  

4. Tank MGs:  "So it could fire its main gun at a target, and then fire one or both of it's MGs (depending on if they were in the firing arc)."   I'm presuming that since you only get to fire at a maximum of two targets under a Open Fire order that if the main gun fires for the first fire then only one of either the bow or coaxial MGs could fire for the second fire, right?  

5. Indirect Fire vs Tank: Jerry - We were doing it as you indicated, I just asked the question with poor wording.  We didn't follow the Aimed Fire procedure, just took the hits directly to the Penetration Table according to P42 " Any unit that takes a Direct Hit resolves damage exactly as if they had been hit by Aimed Fire from high-explosive shells. So, use the shell’s HE blast rating or, if the Direct Hit is against an armoured vehicle, use the shell’s armour penetration value against the vehicle’s side armour value."


If I may, here are three more questions that I forgot to post first time around:

7.  If Main Force truck arrives at the start of Turn 2 can it be loaded to both tow an AT gun and also carry an 82mm mortar & crew ( assuming 12 man truck capacity and the 2 crews only total 6 men)?  

8. Can one order (either Unlimber or Disembark) be given to the above loaded truck so it can do a normal move then have both the the mortar crew disembark and also have the AT gun unlimber ?  Or does it take two orders, one Unlimber order during Turn 2 and one Disembark order in Turn 3, having to wait until Turn 3 for that last one since the vehicle can't perform 2 orders in the same turn?

9. Is a unit that just disembarked or unlimbered available to receive an order in the same player turn?

Thanks again guys, you are really solving a lot of head-scratching!  - Gary
JayM
Posts : 35
Join date : 2018-03-10

Re: First Game Questions

on Wed May 02, 2018 1:57 am
Regarding 6. though the rules allow you to continue the mission of the adjusting round is out of the observer's LOS, I would argue that doesn't make sense from both historical and game points of view. Remember the observer is calling for fire on something he can see, and adjusting the fire as required. Due to the "500 foot general" issue of war-games, if an adjusting round falls out of the observer figures LOS, but the "general" sees that it would still be an effective mission, so allows it to continue. In the real world, if the observer couldn't see the fall of shot, he'd call for confirmation of his original coordinates for fire, and call for another shot. The mission wouldn't be fired until it was "on target (or reasonably so). I would not allow a round falling out of LOS to be the fire point of a fire for effect.

For 7. I don't think a vehicle can "tow" two guns, even if one is a mortar. Remember, it's not just crew and gun - the truck has to carry ammo sufficient for the battle for both guns. That would make 8. moot.

9. The disembark order is to the transport vehicle, so yes, the unit disembarked or unlimbered can receive an order.
Nazrat
Posts : 45
Join date : 2018-02-12
Age : 58
Location : Charlotte, NC USA
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Re: First Game Questions

on Wed May 02, 2018 3:10 am
Great to hear we could help in any way! Honestly I think everybody gets something wrong at first. In our group we were applying pins on every hit similar to what you were doing. It made the games really short because one army broke really quickly that way. It was only reading a battle report that I suddenly realized we were doing it completely wrong. Cool=

As to #4-- A unit/vehicle can fire one weapon type per fire action, for example all MGs in one action and the main gun in the second. All targets and weapons to be fired must be declared before rolling any dice.

I agree with Jay about 7. One gun towed/carried per truck.

9. Yes, although I play it that a freshly unlimbered gun takes the -1 for moving and firing.

Keep 'em coming, man!
Chapps
Posts : 7
Join date : 2018-04-17

Re: First Game Questions

on Wed May 02, 2018 4:13 pm
Thanks Jay & Nazrat!

7. Truck Capacity: "One gun towed/carried per truck."  Got it!  We were just blindly loading the truck up to the man capacity limit with squad, MG team, and gun crewmen passengers and not considering any capacity allowance for the towed gun/mortar itself.

Would it be correct to say that the tow vehicle's capacity must be dedicated to only towing/carrying  that gun and crew while it is limbered, and when the gun is unlimbered then the vehicle is available for other duties using its regular capacity (eg. Opel Blitz = 12 men) to carry as many infantry passengers as desired up to its capacity (eg. two passengers - German squad =5 men + German MG team = 3 for a total of 8 men)?  

Thanks again!  -  Gary
JayM
Posts : 35
Join date : 2018-03-10

Re: First Game Questions

on Thu May 03, 2018 2:17 am
I'm not sure what the rules say, if anything, but a tow vehicle is normally dedicated to the weapon it tows and its crew. Once the gun is dropped it wouldn't go swanning around picking up infantry. Normally the vehicle would then move back to a "harbour" where other vehicles from the gun unit collect for safety.
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Piers
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Re: First Game Questions

on Thu May 03, 2018 10:52 am
A tow vehicle isn't a passenger vehicle.

They would be fitted out for carrying ammo and crew not an infantry section.
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