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Atkins
Posts : 24
Join date : 2018-02-13

Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:45 am
Hi

I was partly wondering the historical reasons for the bias against Brit arty. For instance the FOO is not an Officer and Unique (Only one in any sized game). Additionally a timed 25 lbr stonk costs 20 pts whereas the (superior stats) German 105 stonk costs only 10 pts.

The Brit off table fire support is superior, costs the same in points, but cost 5 orders to fire at full effect, so it is not the payback.

Is there a pay back else where?

Great book though:)

Thanks

Atkins
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Greebs
Posts : 53
Join date : 2018-02-12

Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:56 pm
"Crippled"? Hyperbole much?

How often do you play in a game big enough to justify a second FOO anyway? Especially given your complaint that the batteries cost too many orders... Also, German infantry are rather orders intensive, perhaps giving the German FOO the Officer trait is less shitting on the British FOOs, and more throwing the Germans a bone for having extra units to herd around?

How many guns do you get in the timed 25 pounder strike, vs the 105s? I don't have Torch yet, but I'd wager it's 4/2 respectively, explaining the points disparity.

Guns cost orders to fire, always has it been so, and if it's anything like Tobruk, they will have the option to take two OR four gun batteries, so they are being given additional Options, not being punished.

So... what 'pay back' are you looking for? What do you even mean by 'pay back'?
Atkins
Posts : 24
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:19 am
Hi Greebs

Yes I agree that German Infantry does suffer from 2 units in a squad, but do not think that rationalizes the weakness of the Brit OP, which was my question. I would have thought the Brits would have loads of OPs also as they had lots of Arty. I think also at that stage of the war the Brits had their offices fwd in the OPs giving fire orders where as the US (for instance) gave fire requests.

Both the 25lbr and the 105 are 4 guns. I think the difference is that the 105 can not kill armor only suppress so that makes sense.

Off table fire support is swings and roundabouts.

By pay back I mean game balance, if I am right about the 105s then there is no real imbalance, so I am now only asking for the rational of Brit OPs being so useless, scarce but cheap. (Oh and the fact I like to take two, both for the extra orders and longevity!

All the best

Atkins

Nazrat
Posts : 48
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Age : 58
Location : Charlotte, NC USA
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Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:07 pm
You are starting the whole discussion with a misperception. There is no "game balance" in Battlegroup, and there was never intended to be any.
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wolflord
Posts : 204
Join date : 2018-02-14
Location : Cologne

Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:17 am
The AP value of guns is only used with direct fire. Indirect fire is always HE only.


Greetings
Wolflord
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Greebs
Posts : 53
Join date : 2018-02-12

Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:59 am
Atkins wrote:Yes I agree that German Infantry does suffer from 2 units in a squad, but do not think that rationalizes  the weakness of the Brit OP, which was my question.

You may not think so, but then I don't think the British OP are weak either. They are artillery spotters. They spot for artillery. They do their job with precisely the same adroitness as any other OP in the game.

Atkins wrote:Both the 25lbr and the 105 are 4 guns.  I think the difference is that the 105 can not kill armor only suppress so that makes sense.

Nope, both guns work exactly the same way, that one is probably worth bouncing up to Warwick to check if it's intentional.

Atkins wrote:By pay back I mean game balance, if I am right about the 105s  then there is no real imbalance,  so I am now only asking for the rational of Brit OPs being so useless, scarce but cheap.  (Oh and the fact I like to take two, both for the extra orders and longevity!

I refer you to my earlier statement. They are not 'useless'. As Artillery spotters, they function in exactly the same fashion as everybody else's. For their single, solitary intended purpose, they are entirely functional, you just seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill because you feel other armies can game the system better than yours can.

Also, while I cannot be bothered to check every list, in every book, so far as I recall, the Germans are the only ones whose OPs get the Officer trait, and only in Blitz, Barbarossa, Tobruk and Torch... so I don't know where you've got this idea that taking two of them for extra orders is a common enough practice that you feel the British OPs are 'weak', 'useless' and sufficiently bad that based purely on their status, that the entire artillery table for that list is 'crippled' because they don't work that way.
JayM
Posts : 36
Join date : 2018-03-10

Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:05 am
Semantics aside, I would be interested in understanding the rationale for German FOOs getting the Officer trait and others not getting it. I assume there's some sort of historical justification, but I have no idea what it might be.
Atkins
Posts : 24
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:16 am
Hi

Thanks Wolflord for the AP/HE correction. Unfortunately that raises the question of why the inferior (game wise) 4 x 25pdrs used in a barrage cost twice as much as 4 German 105s? Interestingly the 25pdr is 2 points cheaper on table. Perhaps a typo as Grebs sugested?

The OPs are a different kettle of fish. For instance he Brits and the French do not get the officer and their OP is unique. The Italians Armd are quids in with a Inferior Spotter+ and officer for 14 pts whereas the US Armd dip out with a spotter (not +) and officer for 21 pts.

Just confused!

Atkins

(Who normally plays Germans so is arguing against himself).

Gun-Pit Paul
Posts : 62
Join date : 2018-02-19

Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:46 am
Hi guys

Not got 'Tobruk', but...
As an ex-CPA (Command Post Assistant) in the Royal Artillery in the 1980s, I can say that by this time in the war, the British (and Commonwealth) Artillery had adopted a simple system of calling in the Guns.
Basically, the FOO (an OFFICER, generally a Lt. or Capt.) would ORDER the guns to fire.
The basic system was adopted by the Americans, after the war I believe.
It is referred to as 'ABCA', (America, Britain, Canada and Australia).

[Other armies would use NCOs, I believe. Therefore, they ASK for the Guns.(I may be wrong here!)]

Paul

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user5a8416fb9686d
Posts : 2
Join date : 2018-02-22

Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:51 am
US had officers as forward observers according to the TO&E
http://niehorster.org/013_usa/44_org/div-arm/ad_arty_bn.html

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Colonel White
Posts : 84
Join date : 2018-02-13

Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:33 am
Just a side note. A further Artillery Spotter is available for the British Via the Armoured Car Command in the Recce choices . IMO the mix of artillery in the new book is quite good especially if you throw mortars into the mix.
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Treadwell
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Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

on Mon May 28, 2018 12:38 am
I just hammered the German Tunisian defence force with that Inferior 4 gun battery and FO. I love the flexibility of the batteries I can fire 1-4 guns never needed more than 1 FOO in any game of Battlegroup I ever played. The game tries to give character to the artillery of different nations and at different times in the war. That's the usual reason for the differences.
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Re: Crippled Brit Arty (Again)

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