Firing over friendly troops

Hi all,

Can troops shoot over friendly troops? Do foxholes/slittrenches have an influence? Do support weapons make a difference?

We were unable to find something definitive in the rules (we are still using the older version, hence perhaps the confussion).

cheers

Dirk

Would you shoot over your mates with an MG42?


If on a hill, maybe... but I don't think over a foxhole would be that safe... plus supporting weapons don't tend to be emplaced where their fields of fire overshoot dug in friendly troops unless the elevation provides a safe zone.

I played with possibility to shot over foxholes but looks im was wrong.

I'm fairly certain that main guns on tanks shot over defenses. Same with suppressing fire; MG's and IG's shoot in a slight arc. Everything over 600meters has at least a 1 meter ordinate. I agree that you can't shoot through friendly infantry when not entrenched though.

I was looking for a clear rule because when you ask 3 people you get 4 opinions - and Pierce (whether you want to or not :-)) your opinion will be considered canon.

The easy way out will be to not permit any fire through any friendly troops, irrelevant of elevation.

Cheers

Dirk

Well it's one of those things often best left to individual groups.

Firing a tanks main gun over friendlies? Dunno that's some blast if nearby. 

If you are in a building top floor I'd fire over others no issue... 

Really it comes down to your group and your terrain.

And if that tank has a muzzle brake, which would rock a 20+ tonne nearby tank, then any troops in close vicinity would not be in a fit fighting state at all.

LoS decisions are a negotiation between players, based on their models, the terrain, exact positioning, etc... you don;t write rules for that. We never worry too much about infantry being close to tanks when they fire, as those men are not stationary and aren't all just stood there like the models, they are deployed and mostly prone I'd think. They can also move away a bit (not in the game, in my head). If you have some elevation, hill, roof etc, then yep, shoot over, if your on the same elevation, then you can't expect to shoot clean through another unit that blocks LoS... but if they are in foxholes or trenches, then yes, they are under the level of the table. You'll just establish your own conventions.

Our rule of thumb in dodgey areas is shoot, and expect the same back. Worst comes to the worst, we agree suppressing fire only.

We play as though you can shoot through your own troops generally. By this i mean one unit, not the guys at the back of the board shooting through every friendly unit on board. Our basis is formed on this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF2ry7BfKgU

Warwick discusses LOS etc and the need for spotting. In a nutshell, he states that your tabletop is flat but real land isn't. Those troops may be in a ditch or low lying area etc. We say if the spotting roll through 1 unit is successful then your friendly unit isn't in LOS maybe because they are welcoming the support or maybe in that depression Mr Warwick was discussing.

I'll thrown it into the group. Curious what the result will be :-).

thx for the comments

Dirk

We chickened out and decided on no firing at all through friendly units.

cheers

Dirk

How would you feel with someone shooting passed/over you?

It's mentioned as 'typical for HMG' in 'Elite 214 World war II infantry fire support tactics' by Osprey (p50). The tactic of overhead fire is mentioned in the 'US War department field manual FM18-21 which covers Tank destroyer towed gun platoons (our AT's) (p91). Please don't understand me wrongly, but it was done and on a regular basis.

Personally I think it should be limited to suppressing fire as that was what I perceive as it's role.

However there will always be examples in real war which no rule should be allowed to portray (most of them being probably so exceptional as impossible to portray in a rules set anyway).
The designers (and people playing the game for some time) on the other hand will have a clear idea about what they wanted to portray. They also decided early on what part to retain and what to drop.

cheers

Dirk

Gun-pit, when i was in the military having friendly fire supporting me over my head or to my flanks was never my greatest concern. That's how i felt about it.

It depends upon the circumstances.
If the MG behind me is on the same level as me (and the enemy), I'd be nervous.
To my flanks, more than likely not.
From above me, the same.
But I'd rather not have a bullet-magnet too near me.

Done a few field firing exercises with support firing over head, yes very strictly controlled, but as above, part of the "spotting Dice" is that there is a safe line of fire to the target. Generally the preferred and more effective method is off to a flank.