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Hollander
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Dutch (1LK) List

on Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:40 pm
Is there no Dutch list? Or am I overlooking that somehow? There appear to be Danish and even Norwegian lists but no Dutch?
A good source, in english, can be found when you look for orbat85.nl

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RichardC
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:39 pm
Hi Hollander

Yes - there is no Dutch list at the moment, but I am working on one and have used that excellent website (orbat85.nl) as a primary reference.

Richard
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recce103c
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:35 pm
Hi Richard,

I have some tine on hand, at the moment. So if you need help with Dutch lists, please let me know to which format I have to work.

Recce
nickdives
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:19 pm
Now someone needs to make some figures with pony tails and beards!
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Hollander
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:05 pm
Beards and pony tails? Not in my days. You're probably referring to the popular image of the the Dutch army in the 70's when there was a heavy influence from the US "exporting" flower power. .
In the late 80's everyone who didn't want to be in the Dutch army had ample means to avoid conscription. So basically a lot of the men that actually served were proud to do so.
And it showed as the Dutch performed well during international excercises and competitions.

nickdives
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:53 pm
In 1986 we were umpiring a Dutch Division, thought me luck was in, on entering the mixed showers, nice figure, long blond hair in a pony tail and then when the soldier in question turned round, a beard! We had a demo up in Hohne in 94 the driver operator of the Leopard Bridgelayer had a fine pony tail and beard!

Not a negative slant just my observations, indeed I was training a Dutch unit, in 95 for a Bosnian deployment, a fine gang and many beers were drunk!
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RichardC
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:09 pm
recce 103c wrote:Hi Richard,

I have some tine on hand, at the moment. So if you need help with Dutch lists, please let me know to which format I have to work.

Recce

Hi Recce

Thanks for the offer, but the Dutch list is not too far away. It will be easier for me to complete it and post up and then have you and Hollander tell me all the bits I got wrong!

Thanks again

Richard
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Gunbird
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:16 pm
We'll be going over it with a fine toothed comb Richard..... Suspect
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DennisB
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:58 pm
Quite exciting to see this list. In all my wargaming years I haven't had a chance to actually play a Dutch Army (despite being Dutch Razz)
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RichardC
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:57 am
OK - First set of questions that I can't find the answers to. Please note that unless otherwise stated I'm asking about the 1986/87 timeframe:

1.  Did the Dutch Army have a standard Motorcycle type that would be used in the Dispatch Rider role?  Orbat85.nl lists examples of units with motorcycles but no names.
2.  What vehicle would a Dutch EW Detachment operate with?
3.  I've listed the Miltary Police as being armed with Uzi SMGs and having a 3/4 ton Land Rover.  That's all a bit of a guess so any advice would be very helpful.
4.  What kind of vehicle would a Dutch Forward Air Control Officer and his team have?  Would it be different for 765 and 408 equipped units?
5.  What kind of TOW ATGM would a YPR-765 PRAT and a YP-408 PWAT be armed with in say 1986.  And 1983 if that's not asking too much!
6.  Orbat85.nl has a YP-408 infantry section equipped exactly the same as a YPR-765 section.  In Isby's NATO's Central Front it states that "...YP-408 APCs squads do not have organic Carl Gustavs, each platoon and Company HQ having 2 instead.  Each squad only has one LMG."  Which do you think is correct?
7. Did the Dutch Army use the M2 Alligator Amphibious Bridge & Ferry System? If not, did they use something else. I already have the Treadway Bridge as an option.

Thanks.  Progressing quite well but I thought I may as well use you guys to help out!

Richard
CAG 19
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:37 pm
My interest in the LK comes from a 6mm force that I have.

1.  Triumph 3TA delivered in the 1960s.  http://www.triumph3ta.nl/Engels/indexengels.html
2.  
3.
4.   No dedicated YPR-765 or M113 variant for FAC/TACP.  RAF squadrons and US Radar Units mention Exercise CLOGGY EMOTION  which ran annually so you might be able to find some information.
5.  Depends how good your Dutch is http://www.statengeneraaldigitaal.nl  would indicate that TOW2 was being considered as far back as 1984 which would indicate TOW or best I-TOW in 1983.
6.  This picture shows the old structure https://www.dafyp408.nl/images/compagnietxt.jpg under P1. I can't find a date when they transitioned.
7. UK, FRG and Singapore are the only recorded users of the M2
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Gunbird
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:22 am
1. No Triumphs, replaced in 1981 with the Moto Guzzi V50 NATO, unless you count the ones at depots.
2. 102 Elektronische Oorlogsvoeringscompagnie was raised in 1986 with German equipment and was the first unit of its kind in our armed forces after ideas having been drawn up in the 70's (according to the 102 02 Elektronische Oorlogsvoeringscompagnie historical records). Before that, nothing. Truck mounted equipment only, no Fuchs till 1991. There was a unit before this period but it focussed purely on the security of our own net, not EW as it is now (far from it)
3. Military Police would have the Lightweights and Regular Landrovers (and if you are very unlucky a old Daf car) with the lightbars on top and the white bumpers. Uzi's and Pistols. A very limited number of M113's and M113 C&V were fielded by the KMAR in this period, mostly in army green and some in MP Blue.
4. Indeed, no such thing. Dutch Airforce supplied dedicated recce support, fighter support and anti air defence to NATO and a very limited strike capability. Our helicopter assets are for artillery spotting and liason duties only in that period.
5. The 1980-81  purchase reports mention additional launchers and vehicles and munitions for the TOW with the withdrawal of the AMX. 1983 would be the TOW-1. 1986 would be TOW-1a or maybeTOW-2. The TOW-2a was purchased in 1989 according to a budget article from 1988
6.Only the YP-408 Platoon Commander vehicles had racks for the Carl Gustav, there were none in the regular platoon YP-408 vehicles. Reading up on details listed by former Dutch CG gunners, I'd go with Isby.
7. No M2 Alligator. No Treadways either as far as I know of, we use pontoons coupled together but for the ife of me I can't find what type. The museum, barracks and depot of the Engineers is 10 minutes from here in Vught, I can drive over and check the museum. Also still in the period, sections of Bailey lashed to a few coupled pontoons.
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RichardC
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:17 am
Thanks CAG 19 and Gunbird - really helpful stuff.

1. Done
2. So I'll just give the EW Detachment a DAF YA-4440 truck?
3. Done
4. So i'll just give the FAC a Land Rover?
5. I'll give them ITOW with the option of TOW-2
6. Will go with Isby
7. I'll get rid of the M2 and stick with the Treadway and maybe Bailey Bridge.

Great stuff. Should have a draft ready early next week.

Richard
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Gunbird
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:35 am
Did some more extended research:
2. Personel training and purchase of equipment - Starting late 1986. Actually battleready and officially raised: November 1988. So historially, in 86/87 we have nothing.
4. Ehm, we don't have a FAC in that period, so no Land Rover. Tough luck for us, Timed Airstrikes only or the occasional lucky roll?
7. Sure. Still haven't been able to find the name of the system but I know we used these ribbon bridges while Germany and Belgium used those floating trucks. The last pic is an American one but as far as I can tell its the same system.





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recce103c
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:15 pm
Sorry for the late reply RichardC.
Concur with the results of CAG19 and Gunbird mostly, but I have some some slightly different answers, based on army plans (material & organisational) – I worked on 1(LK)Army plans branch and the operational planning cel there , in that period.

1. Triumph 3TA delivered in the 1960s. http://www.triumph3ta.nl/Engels/indexengels.html addition: De V 50 NATO was purchased in 1981 for dispatich ad Military Police tasks fort he Koninklijke Landmacht as preplacement of the Triumph 3TA. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V_50-serie
2. 1985: one platooon set (3 ESM/2ECM) leased from Germany. 1986 introduction 22 Fuchs EW vehicles both ESM and ECM, (1988 operational : 20 employed in 2 coys rest material reserve); Additional Daf YA 4440/YA4442 Shelter versions for C2 and Intel Analysis ; also 6x DAF 10 ton trucks (YAZ2300 - Later Scania) with ‘high mast/antennae ‘for long range HF ESM.
3.that is correct 1984: one battalion (6 companies) see: https://www.orbat85.nl/order-of-battle/royal-army/1-nl-corps/101-marbat.html : one ‘Squadron:
In 1985 the equipment of 11 Military Constabulary Squadron comprised 24 x Land Rover, 24 x Moto Guzzi V50, 16 x DAF 66 YA light utility vehicle, 9 x DAF YA-4440 four-tonne truck and 3 x VW Transporter; 4 x M20 or M20B1 Bazooka 3.5 inch, 2 x M2 hmg .50 inch and 5 x MAG gpmg 7.62 mm. Personal armament consisted of a pistol (FN Browning Hi-Power 9 mm), to be augmented with a UZI submachine gun 9 mm in wartime

4. No dedicated YPR-765 or M113 variant for FAC/TACP. RAF squadrons and US Radar Units mention Exercise CLOGGY EMOTION which ran annually so you might be able to find some information.
Additional: Not totally correct: 1. Te Helicopter Squadrons in 1984 were both FAC and later (1988) Artillery Observation capable, being an airforce trained organisation. Furthermore the TAC concept was introduced in the Netherlands from 1981. Initially a Rear-FAC (TACP) at Army Corps Level (1(NL)LK) and one FAC party(TACP) per forward brigade. By 1984 all brigades had 2 FAC/TACP parties per brigade and 1(NL)LK had 3 rear-TACP parties (one per LLTR) and the 2 ATAF Liaison deth at 1(NL)LK HQ. Equipment: The FACs had a (reserve) pilot wirth driver in a jeep later landrover with trailer with VHF UHF sets. The REAR FAC , TACP parties had these same jeeps, but also Airforce “1960íes style Daf 5 Ton Shelter C2 Trucks with trailers (DAF V1600 4x4 & DAF A1300DA360(BW1100) with HF /VHF & UHF eqt.
5. Depends how good your Dutch is http://www.statengeneraaldigitaal.nl would indicate that TOW2 was being considered as far back as 1984 which would indicate TOW or best I-TOW in 1983.
TOW was introduced in NLD in 1979 (decision & purchase 1977) Mounted on the AMX PRAT & YP408 PWAT); sorry Ican’t find any dates on Purchase of TOW-2A
6. This picture shows the old structure https://www.dafyp408.nl/images/compagnietxt.jpg under P1. I can't find a date when they transitioned.
Both not totally correct AMX PRI and YP 401PWI Organisation 1978 onward (and the reconaissance platoon M113 based Infantry Squad had an Infantry Squad of 10: 1 Sgt, 1 Kpl, 8 soldiers: 1x gunner Carl Gustav 84mm AT, 1x gunner 7.62mm Mag 6 riflemen FAL SLR 7.62mm. The YPR had one rifleman FAL SLR 7.62mm less because of the 25mm Oerlikon gun in the AIFV. 1 MAG 7.62 per Squad is correct, that was changed only with introduction of 5.56 SAW ( 2 per Squad starting in 2001 with the 11th Air Assault Brigade)

7. UK, FRG and Singapore are the only recorded users of the M2
as pictures above by Gunbird above.


I hope this helps
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RichardC
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:16 am
The draft version of the Dutch list is now up in a new thread

Thanks

Richard
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RichardC
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:35 pm
The final Dutch Army list and Dutch AFV Data Table is now up on the main thread. Please let me know what you think

Richard
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RichardC
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:40 pm
A couple of new questions for you Dutch Army experts.

1. What year did the Stinger SAM go into service in the Netherlands?
2. Did the Dutch Army have a MANPADS system in place prior to the Stinger? I thought possibly Redeye but that doesn't appear to be so
3. What year did the Leopard 2 come into service?
4. What year did the YPR-765s come into service?
5. Prior to the YPR-765s would a unit most likely have YP-408s or something else?

Thanks

Richard
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Gunbird
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:11 pm
1. 1985, but in the Airforce only, later on in the Army
2. No.
3. 445 Leopard 2 tanks supplied between 1981 and 1986. First Dutch Leopard 2's in Germany in July 1983 in 43 Tkb
4. YPR-765 , 880 ordered, supllied during 1977 till 1989
5. YP-408, AMX or truck
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RichardC
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Re: Dutch (1LK) List

on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:31 pm
Thanks Johan

I knew you'd know the answers!

Richard
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